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Aha... Interesting. Now that is something to keep an eye out for in future.
Pity the pic didn't catch more to the left/south.
Just to speculate, if it had been concrete and non-floating, it would probably have been abandoned and still be there.
I wonder if it was perhaps a pontoon or floating harbour installed to serve the hospital, it would have made sense to keep such personnel transport away from the servicing activities and movements of the base and fuel depot. |
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| NO, no, no It was further out and to the SW and not connected to the shore and definitely rectangular in shape with one end missing. |
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That's a lot of pics, whatever the current camera is, it seems to be doing a good job.
Renamed to match Main Site page and moved to Discussion forum.
RNAS Crail was known as HMS Jackdaw from 1939 to 1947, and HMS Bruce from 1947 to 1949.
From 1956 to 1960, it served as JSSL Crail, the Joint Services School for Linguists, a Russian language school of the Cold War. |
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By all accounts, the base was busy as I read the stories, so it would seem reasonable for it to have had extended areas of dock for the visiting ship to moor at and be serviced. First by the RN for convoy escort vessels, then by the Americans for Operation Torch training.
Is this what you are describing - north is to the right if I recall this pic correctly:
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Spotted last week, current activity, see pic 7:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7726974.stm
Oddly, although I have an Air Cadet, and I think Army Cadet, site nearby, I've never seen anyone there, even wondering if the place was ever used. Then, one dark evening, I recently caught them holding drill practice - in the dark.
The Territorial Army have also relocated due to the new M74, into a recently completed new centre at the Cambuslang Investment Park which comprises new bespoke buildings for the TA transportation division. The new centre accommodates administration, welfare, canteen/messing and training facilities (including a firing range) vehicle maintenance bays and storage.
The adjacent yard is packed with dozens of lorries, Land-Rovers, trailers, and other accessories. |
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He may have been right, they have to lift ye up a gear or twa'
Ach Captain, you'll have to explain that yin to me.
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I live in Cumbernauld, left at 11am and the fog was very, very thick, then at Dunfermline it cleared.
I need a better camera 
My next one will be a DSLR, I really manage to be on the limit for this cam sometimes... 
and thanks Captain  |
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| Good pics Drifter, nice clear day unlike Lanarkshire where it has been fog, fog and fog except East Kilbusbie where I was for a wee while this morning. |
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Our head officer led us to believe the Highland Light Infantry were the greatest soldiers on earth, and there was no way we could possibly be beaten by anyone.
He may have been right, they have to lift ye up a gear or twa'
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I was an Army Cadet, but i never got to do the things Jade did. We learned all the foot and rifle drills; how to fire a rifle (with only a two/two); a little map reading; aircraft identification; and signalling using the Morse code with tapper and flag (part of a specialty course). Oh, i got to wear a kilt and learned how to cross the River Cart at Inchinnan-- one either removes one's kilt and underpants or one has one's backside pants soaked for the rest of the day (not to mention the 'scurrvy' knees from a wet kilt ); I chose the latter method... but i won't do this next time!
Our officers were ex-servicemenr from the Great War and not of the broken-nosed variety one might have expected to find in the HY. Our head officer led us to believe the Highland Light Infantry were the greatest soldiers on earth, and there was no way we could possibly be beaten by anyone. We believed them all the way. I suppose in this regard there was a strong similarity between the Cadets and the HY. I enjoyed being a cadet... had lots of fun! |
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JF - How would you desribe the ethos of the ATC?
I'd say it's good for those with an interest in aviation. It is meant to be a good thing to join if you are thinking in a forces career, the RAF specifically. When I joined we had yearly camps at RAF stations, but of the places I went to, Catterick, Shawbury, Macrihanish, Wildenrath and Finningley, only Shawbury still operates as an RAF base. The base numbers have dropped significantly so I don't know if thats still open. I learned how to handle a rifle, from a .22 bolt action up to a 7.62 SLR, but safety drills were paramount. Gliding and flying were also part of it, though the frequency of that depended on what the location of your squadron was, in Irvine, the closes place was Turnhouse for flying and Kirknewton for gliding, quite a distance. |
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| Sooner him than me it is reading -4 on my outdooor thermometer. |
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| My son is in the Army cadets and at this moment is in camp at Arrochar. He's a Tankie - i.e. attached to 4th. Royal Tank Regt. - the Jock one. |
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| JF - How would you desribe the ethos of the ATC? |
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| The Air Training Corps, Army Cadets, Sea Cadets as well as the Combined Cadet Force do indeed still exist, I was in the ATC myself. |
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The Cadet organisations still exist now as far as I am aware Dugald although I doubt if they ever saw themselves as being remotely like the HY, and I am not sure they ever were. I thought they provided a kind of watered down basic training.
The Scouts and the Hy were probably more alike than many would care to admit being as they (Scouts) were very much based on duty to God,King and country.
Going back to the HY, they wore Kneckerchiefs too. |
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Actually setting up the HY was quite a clever idea even if the good bits were nicked from Baden Powell! The Scout movement was huge all over the world in the 1930s and the best way of squashing it in Germany was to recycle it as the HY. Even the uniforms were copied. If Hitler had not done that it would have existed as an underground movement and that would not have suited the nazis.
A meaningful point Fox. I agree with you about the HY being a clever idea. And the uniform did bear some resemblance to that of the Boy Scouts... I'm thinking especially of the short trousers and the badge-bedecked shirts. The HY had its Cub-like level too(called Pfimpsor some such word), just like the Boy Scouts.
During the war there were organisations in the UK much like the HY. The Army Cadets, Air Training Corps, and Royal Navy Cadets. This was over and above the same type of organisations found in private schools (I'm thinking here of the Officer Training Corps in places such as Eton). The normal Cadet Corps etc were never regimented anything like the HY, but they did serve as a source of a wee-bit-trained personnel for our services. These cadet groups were taken seriously and at the height of the war their numbers were very substantial. |
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| Another pic showed a structure in the water off of Rosneath Naval Base. It shows up as a white rectangle aligned roughly NE - SW with the NE end missing. There are 2 ships moored to the western side. It could be a floating dock but if it is, it is a large one and the white colour suggests concrete construction. It could also be an extra non floating dock area. |
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Name from OS Map.
1942 aerial photography of the area shows that the current site of th QuinetiQ base was occupied by 5 long (probably nissen) huts at right angles to the shore line. The big surprise was that the whole area of woodland behind this had dozens of huts amongst the trees. I assume it was some kind of accomodation camp.
We do not seem to have a page that this information belongs on. |
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To hark back a wee bit - this was the viaduct you should have walked under Apollo but its just as well ye didn't because after 300 yards of the nice rural track ..................
Was down there today (as I had reason to be in the area) and had a wander around. I don't think I will ever return. |
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| Actually setting up the HY was quite a clever idea even if the good bits were nicked from Baden Powell! The Scout movement was huge all over the world in the 1930s and the best way of squashing it in Germany was to recycle it as the HY. Even the uniforms were copied. If Hitler had not done that it would have existed as an underground movement and that would not have suited the nazis. |
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"...carried away and dewy-eyed..."? Hardly Apollo! There is no doubt that the Hitler Youth had one purpose, that was, as you reminded us, to catch the young and indoctrinate them to the Nazi party and Hitler. There was nevertheless, much that the HY learned while messing about in their wee short troosers. For example: they learned first aid; navigational mathematics; cleanliness; engine servicing; evils of smoking & drinking; how to extinguish incendiaries and much else that we taught our ARP personnel. Oh, and among their most important duties, they learned how to fold a military greatcoat. They provided very valuable help to evacuating badly-bombed cities, especially Dresden. All based on comments from those who were there. I'm sure you'll recognize that much of what they did was not at the cost of non-German people.
There may well have been the "school bully" types among the HY members. I'm sure too, that there were also school bully types among those who were not HY members... just as we in the U.K. had them. No, no, according to my understanding, they were not "free to enjoy their pastime without fear of retribution,"; on the contrary, their retribution was swift and severe for behavioral delinquents.
"And one of their favourite pastimes was denouncement,". Hmmmm, I wonder how widespread this was. Denouncing one's own parents made very good propaganda copy (it was also attributed to the Russian communists). I doubt if parental denouncement was ever a common occurrence... with either the Germans or the Russians.
Anyway we're agreed that simply having had the Hitler Youth in one's past is not in of itself damning.. |
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Let's not get carried away and dewy-eyed about the Hitler Youth.
Take it from me - and I pass the comment from those who were there - the Hitler Youth had one purpose, to catch the young and indoctrinate them to the Nazi party and Hitler, whatever front they may have dressed that aim with.
If they did anything for the benefit of German people, it was to the cost of any non-Germans they took it from.
While there is no doubt it was packed with those obliged to be there, and that includes those who joined to prevent the Nazis persecuting the rest of the family for not having at least one member affiliated to the party, it was also the ideal home for what might best be called the "school bully", immature young men best described as thugs who were free to enjoy their pastime without fear of retribution, and more likely praise.
And one of their favourite pastimes was denouncement, and that included anyone who dared even make an anti-party remark, including their own parents and family members.
Discount this if you wish, but I am merely recounting the memories of people who were there at the time.
I agree, for those in the know, simply having the Hitler Youth in one's past is not in of itself damning. It was effectively unavoidable. |
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Thanks for the information Apollo. One learns something every day.
Hmmmmm Apollo, one does learn something every day.
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Head hangs in shame...
Maybe I should not steer so clear of good old Wikipedia (only because it's second hand, and not first hand reference).
I didn't even trip over Benedict XVI - bad searching! |
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I'm talking about the present Pope, isn't he known as Benedict?
Yep, I'm right
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
"Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth—as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939[7]—but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.[8] His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith, according to biographer John L. Allen, Jr. In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics.[9] In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945." |
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Thanks for the information Apollo. One learns something every day.
In thinking further about a Pope being a member of the Hitler Youth I found myself thinking further about the Hitler Youth (HY) rather than of the Pope's membership in it. Would having the HY label attached to ones curriculum vitae have been such a damning addendum? I just finished reading about some of the jobs undertaken by the HY during the war, and I was left with the feeling they had contributed a fair bit to the well-being of the German people.
Even in the early days under the guidance of von Schirach, the HY spent most of their time playing at soldiers. Were they guilty of persecuting the Jews? I don't know, they may well have, at the taunting-and-breaking-windows level, but I don't know of them ever having had anything to do with concentration camps. Oh yes, many of them may have entered the SS, but I'd guess mostly as soldiers rather than prison guards.
My second thoughts about the behavior of the HY adds perhaps, some credence to Jade's "Hell, look at the carry on about Pope Benedict being a member of the Hitler Youth" exclamation... that is, there was really no need for any "carry on" about the Pope having been a card-carry Hitler Youth. |
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Don't worry Dugald, you haven't missed anything.
Pope John Paul II, a Pole, was the first non-Italian pope for almost 465 years, and I doubt any Italians would have met the racial purity wants of something like the Hitler Youth.
It may also be noteworthy that Benedict XV died in 1922, the year the Hitler Youth was first formed.
He was succeeded by Pius XI. |
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Hell, look at the carry on about Pope Benedict being a member of the Hitler Youth. Never mind the fact he had no choice and he deserted his post on a number of occasions, there were people seizing on the 'Oh my god he's a Nazi' part.
Well Jade. I don't know why, but I've have heard precious little about Pope Benedict's membership in the Hitler Youth over here, yet you say " look at the carry on". I would attribute my lack of knowledge of this to my thinking that taking on the Pope would be viewed as quite a different matter from taking on the likes of Herr Waldheim. I mean Waldheim was only UN Secretary General, and not too many members were lining up to defend him, whereas taking on the Pope...well now, that's much bigger stuff, and would-be detractors would have to tread lightly. Yes Jade, I'm aware this is not consistent with what happened in the U.K., but it is the way I think it appeared over here. |
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