Hi there, I hope somebody can help me find out more about a pet subject I have been studying for a while now. Legend has it that a vaulted passage was constructed under the Clyde linking the Donjon at Bothwell Castle with Blantyre Craig (the site of Blantyre Priory on the other side of the river) This passage is mentioned in multiple books spanning the 18th/19th/20th centuries. and is used in the old novel Scottish Chiefs to enhance the story. It is also said that sometime in the year of 1945 this tunnel was found, but other than that I know nothing.
It was apparently a vaulted passage hewn out of the solid bedrock under the clyde, starting in the castle and ending either below the 100 foot precipice of Blantyre Craig, or reaching the Priory on top. The latter option is extremely unlikely.
The late Neil Gordon in his 2006 book describes a large boulder as blocking a cave below Blantyre Craig, which he believes blocks this passage.
The man that works in Bothwell Castle informed me that "in the old days" the masons who maintained the building knew secretly where the castle end of the entrance existed, but they kept it secret. He also informed me that he knew a bunch of boys in his youth who knew of the tunnel but kept it secret, and apparently ventured into the tunnel using tarred-up potato sacks to allow them to traverse a flooded section of this passage.
Considering the Castle was constructed entirely from the now gone adjacent cliff, and considering this sort of stone is easy to work, and that such passages were not uncommon in castles, and the fact the legend has spanned 4 centuries, it all acts as compelling evidence that this tunnel may exist.
Now my question is, Does anyone know more???
I want to find out how well-known this legend is, if anyone has seen it, or knows anything that may even relate slightly to the story.
I appreciate anything any of you can tell me.
Note: I do not plan to venture into this tunnel - The risk of collapse, lack of air, disorientation are far too great, but I would like to get photos of the entrance, inform WOSAS, etc...
I should perhaps be more specific to support this cause. I have already found, surveyed and catalogued 157 new archaeological sites in the areas of East Kilbride and High Blantyre, including passages, caves, burial vaults, cairns, a castle bigger than Bothwell Castle, incised stones, cup and ring marks, monks burial mounds, etc.... I have dismissed many legends which I did not think carried enough weight. So you could say I have learned my lesson from many wild goose chases. I have a copy of almost every local resource and want to take the next step so to speak. I am sure from what I have experienced with my research so far that this story carries overwhelming evidence. I have traced 23 books and 3 manuscripts which describe this legend in detail.
Although the continuation of the general story through 4 centuries doesn't prove much, the details within those stories do. These books were printed by publishers spanning britain and europe and the story remains consistent, and several reputable historical sources support the story: Sir Walter Scott, Dorothy Wordsworth, etc... The layout of the design between the two buildings creates striking lines of sight, and discrepencies occur on the river banks which suggest manipulation below the precipice. Also a well was found in the base of the great Donjon in the 1800's. The landforms all due west of the castle have been extensively reshaped and the well at Bothwell Castle is fathoms deep. They were certainly capable of such things.
I always approach such stories very skeptically, but when it kept resurfacing during my own research I had to investigate further. Everyhting I have ever set out to find with conviction I have ended up finding sooner or later. If anyone has even the tiniest snippet of information I am sincerely grateful.
Although the continuation of the general story through 4 centuries doesn't prove much, the details within those stories do. These books were printed by publishers spanning britain and europe and the story remains consistent, and several reputable historical sources support the story: Sir Walter Scott, Dorothy Wordsworth, etc...
In my experience this suggests that one person wrote about this tunnel and every writer thereafter repeated the claim - probably word for word. Antiquarians of the past seemed happy to do this as it spiced up and added some mystery to their own publications.
On a slightly less sceptical level I have visited Bothwell Castle since boyhood and been down in the Don Jon many times. I have also visited the ruins of Blantyre Priory on two occasions - by way of visiting the carvings below. Now - and without doing a goog both were built around the same time c.13th. century, the castle by an illustrious forebear of mine [a Murray] and the priory by the Augustine Order of monks.
Now it could be that the floor level of the priory and the castle base is about the same height from the water but I cannot see why anyone would (and even more who would finance it) see any benefit in linking both by a tunnel. If there ever was a tunnel going under the Clyde it would as suggested not have been driven up through the strata of sandstone on the western escarpment. There would be no point. However having a tunnel opening anywhere within 12 feet of normal water level would be stupid, the risk of spates flooding it would be far too great. It is for both above reasons plus the cost factor that I think this is a myth.
I think you have two very valid points which I balance in my mind alongside the arguments in favour of its existance. Many castles had entrances into caves and such escape routes were prone to flooding, and they did remove the entire cliff to build the castle. It is said that this tunnel served as escape for the holy men and woman to the sanctuary of the priory.
As for the antiquarian repitition, I constantly see such instances in old books. What interests me about this story is the fact that one book describes it as being re-discovered in the 1700's, and another describes vaulting, wheareas another goes into crazy detail about a strong room halfway along, and brick walls to support the roof. There is even a letter in existance saying that Sir Walter Scott in his earlier days visited it secretly and inscribed his name on the tunnel passage. Also the boys mentioned by the Castle shop worker said the tunnel was flooded.
Right now my opinion is
60% in favour 40% against.
The builder of Bothwell Castle was hired by Murray from France/Germany to build the most beautiful building in Christendom. Where the castle architect came from Castles are riddled with long-stretching secret tunnels through cliffs etc...
Have you read the old book 'By Bothwell's Banks' ? there may be reference to this matter in there.
I have to ask why a tunnel would be dug between the castle and the priory. The religous house would always have been respected by all and it is doubtful whether it and its inhabitants would ever have been in danger from anyone - including the English. The castle was a considerable strongpoint though not impregnable as Edward I reduced it over a couple of weeks in Sept. 1301 and there is no record of the defenders fleeing anywhere. They surrendered, English chronicles survive recording the siege.
In my experience this suggests that one person wrote about this tunnel and every writer thereafter repeated the claim - probably word for word. Antiquarians of the past seemed happy to do this as it spiced up and added some mystery to their own publications.
That seems to happen very often, I am sure the famous Aurora story at Machrihanish is like that. Also a friend is researching a possible ancestor who was awarded the VC. All the reference sources give his place of birth and death but she has just about proved that both are completely wrong.
A tunnel under the Clyde is very implausible, all the references suggest the Thames tunnel in the early 19th Century was the first tunnel under a navigable river so if there was a much earlier Clyde tunnel then it would be of major historical importance.
It is not imposssible that either or both buildings had tunnels to the river but I share the doubts about them joining up. A similar tunnel was found at Paisley Abbey in the 1990s. It turned out to be a medieval drain The link below will take you to more iinfo and an internal picture.
The Thames tunnel was proven not to be the first. Cromwell ordered deep linear mines which extended out under the sea for coal for hundreds of metres.
The number of primitive mines and quarries all over this district is very impressive, and if such a subaqueous route did exist, what more appropriate location than bothwell castle. Bothwell Castle is an extremely grand ruin with complex architecture for the time. The donjon extends deep through the solid rock, etc... I still think that if such a tunnel did exist, Bothwell Castle and its layout and allignment with the priory is extremely appropriate.
The Thames tunnel was proven not to be the first. Cromwell ordered deep linear mines which extended out under the sea for coal for hundreds of metres.
The number of primitive mines and quarries all over this district is very impressive, and if such a subaqueous route did exist, what more appropriate location than bothwell castle. Bothwell Castle is an extremely grand ruin with complex architecture for the time. The donjon extends deep through the solid rock, etc... I still think that if such a tunnel did exist, Bothwell Castle and its layout and allignment with the priory is extremely appropriate.
The mines under the Forth are quite early but I don't think there are any tunnels actually crossing a navigable waterway that precede the Thames Tunnel.
ok 25 years ago and for many years i used to visit bothwell castle and the old man that worked there who retired a few years ago not the one who is there now told me that some old men used to come up to the castle and they talked about when they were kids they found a tunnel and boys being boys they decided to find out where it went they ended up across the river on the blantyre side..he told me there were more tunnels and where i could find them and that he had actually seen them.they are actually some on the hill as you walk towards the river and nature trail the on the public side of the fence as you walk down they are on the hill on the left hand side at the fence..on the other side was that beautiful big house 1 nearest the castle that hurry brothers used to own and it was sold and is demolished now, on that property tunnels were also there , theguy that lived there hurry bros had sons and one day they went missing they searched all day could not find them they came home eventually saying they had found tunnels and they went down them they led to the inside of the castle and the boys had played there all day the father blocked u the tunnels straight away and you could still see them in the garden right up till they pulled it down and i saw them 3 years ago hop this helps
"The subsequent history of the castle is somewhat uneventful and towards the end of the 17th century, Archibald Douglas, First Earl of Forfar, moved out and started to build a fine Palladian mansion, Bothwell House, using much of the stone from the castle. Alas, like Hamilton Palace, just five years before it, Bothwell House was demolished in 1926, a victim of subsidence from coal mining. The only remaining structure being the current entrance to Bothwell Castle Golf Club. However, nearly 800 years later, Historic Scotland is proud to maintain Bothwell Castle as part of the nation’s built heritage."
This is a quote from http://www.bothwellcommunitycouncil.org.uk/2008/09/ Various other mentions of these mines exist in some books to. The above maps which led under the mansion (Bothwell House) are not shown on any OS maps I have seen. I would assume that if tunnels were found in the vicinity of the mansion they would be coal mines. As for children going down them then claiming to end up at the castle, one would think they just added 1 + 1 and came up with a good story due to local legend.
When you say that the man who used to work in the castle knew of other tunnels was he referring to the ones near the Mansion??
As for the story of boys finding a tunnel that led accross the river, this is exciting and if you have any other details I would like to know more.
It would be exciting if true, right enough. Got to ask the obvious question though; given the proximity of the two buildings, why not just use a boat instead of all the time and expense building a tunnel? It would be easy enough to make a safe path down the cliff, surely?
A quay was built for tourist boats on a bend south of the castle. This was probably constructed in the mid-late 18th century but could possibly date back to the 17th century. Another example closer to the castle is known as well, but no 13th century examples are known to exist.
A friend of mine suggested that a boat may have been set up, tied to a rope, so it would travel along a line of site to the priory craig (Blantyre Craig).
This is certainly possible. But an invading army would have been smart enough to spot such things.
We must remember that information, while publicly provided in good faith, may not be accurate. Many other structures remain that were connected with the second Bothwell Castle.
The building known as "The Poultry" stands adjacent to the road 'Castle Avenue' that was built in the 1970s to provide access to the extensive housing development that was permitted in the castle grounds. [Its route has almost no connection whatsoever with the roads that served the castle]. It is to the north and east of the castle. Opposite it, and accessed through the housing, is a once formal pond. Both these structures were reputed to supply the palace kitchens. To the south and east, now adjacent to the mini-roundabout close to the primary school, is part of a small stone tower. Its purpose is unclear and may have been build as a folly. Close to the castle, to the north, there is a stone bridge across the lower part of Jock's Burn. South of the castle, adjacent to the river, is the walled garden, now sadly a housing estate. Most of the 2m high wall that surrounded the grounds is still standing today.
Those chaps who were members of the local scout troops, who were allowed access to the grounds for summer activities, knew these places well. However, if they have already slipped from memory, what chance have we with recollections of tunnels being passed on?
A friend of mine suggested that a boat may have been set up, tied to a rope, so it would travel along a line of site to the priory craig (Blantyre Craig). This is certainly possible. But an invading army would have been smart enough to spot such things.
That's always a problem, true. Are/were there any fords in the immediate area?
Quote from : Discovering The River Clyde by Innes Macleod & Margaret Gilroy, John Donald Publishers, 1991.
"The Industrial Revolution however passed Bothwell by, although there was one coal mine in the Castle Policies which opened in 1878. Tenements, now demolished, were built to house the miners on the opposite side of Uddingston Road, under which a passageway was made to take the miners from the colliery to their homes without offending the gaze of the villagers. The tunnel is still there, but the entrances have been blocked up because of its dangerous condition."
Next Quote from : Bothwell Castle by W. Douglas Simpson, published for Ministry of Public Building and Works as an official Guide-book by her Majesty's stationary office, 1958.
Page 10 - "The ruined castle still belongs to the Earl of Home, but in 1935 was placed by the proprietor under the guardianship of H.M. Office of Works (now Ministry of Public Building & Works), by which the great fabric has now been placed in a state of thorough repair. At one time the safety of the ruins was gravely menaced by coal mining. It will be seen that the walls are in places much cracked, but serious damage was fortunately averted, and the foundations are now believed to be stable again."
If any evidence exists, it would seem any clue which relates to mines should be sought.
A quay was built for tourist boats on a bend south of the castle. This was probably constructed in the mid-late 18th century but could possibly date back to the 17th century. Another example closer to the castle is known as well, but no 13th century examples are known to exist.
A friend of mine suggested that a boat may have been set up, tied to a rope, so it would travel along a line of site to the priory craig (Blantyre Craig).
This is certainly possible. But an invading army would have been smart enough to spot such things.
To the south east of the castle on the east bank of the river there is a submerged (at the time of the visit it was about 2ft. below the water) quay structure. Apollo might have a photo from the time we were down there a few years ago. It seems it was built to ferry colliers crossing to and from the Priory pit (officially Bothwell Castle No.3 and 4) which was situated on the opposite bank not far from the ruined priory. I'd say the nearest ford would be at the Blantyre weir because the banks of the Clyde in the vicinity of the castle are sandy, which may indicate a soft river bed and the current is slow and ripple free which would indicate depth.
As an aside there is a carving on the sandstone face next to it recording the height the river reached in a flood in 1787 or so.
Afraid I don't seem to have anything digital, only "old" film - I think his lordship took any pics that went online, as I'm sure I remember seeing them then, but I can't work out how to find them if they are.
The Jetty/Quay you speak of Captain Brittles & Apollo, is the one nearer the castle I speak of. This has been photographed by James Brown of High Blantyre. His extensive photostream on his Flickr page shows all manner of local Lanarkshire sites, especially Blantyre and Calderglen. It really is an excellent resource.
The masonry of that jetty appear very old, certainly older than late 19th century surely??
Does anybody know if the 'old' masons of Bothwell Castle are still around. Apparently they knew of this passage but did not tell people about it. If they are still around they will be at least 75-80 y/o.
I'm not really including the following as it adds to the info in the thread, but I just tripped over what seems to be an interesting site on Ancient Scotland while looking for something else, and I've never seen the site before, probably because it seems to have been dormant for years, since 2005.
It has an entry for Bothwell, with a reasonable summary, and picks up on the location and the river too...
The photos are quite good too, and looking at the well surroundings and the passages in the donjon, you can see how some might assume the existence of tunnels down there, whether or not there were any there.
If nothing else, all the other sites it lists, and the pics, are nice to look at
the address of the house that got demolished was 5 earls gate it was the the last one as you approached the castle if you were driving up to it, it had tunnels in the garden nearest the castle all filled in if you follow the embankment down the hill towards the footpath toward the old walled garden of the which is now an ugly estate but the tunnel at earls gate led frrom there garden to under the castle. the other tunnels led onto the nature trail along and facing the river from the hill at the house, i also remember something about strathclyde university coming to Bothwell castle and looking at other tunnels they found there maybe you could look into this ?in the 1970,s i think . i live in the usa now or i would show you out of interest you can see David Livingstone's grafitti on the wall at Bothwell castle its on the side facing the clyde 200 year old grafitti his name nad the year he wrote it
And use the map to find Bothwell Castle, then you can place a marker on top of any points of interest.
This will generate three lines of code we can use to pinpoint the same location.
Instruction are on the page, but all you have to do is copy those three lines, and paste them into a message here and we can use them to find the same spot.
Might be easier than trying to describe places that aren't there any longer, having been demolished and replaced with new developments - and by some some pretty wealthy folk too, I might add.
Hi Carey, the information you have is of much interest to us, if you can, please follow Apollo's recomendation and place markers on the map to show where everyhting is. It is easy to give general areas, but when it comes to for example "the hill on the right", it all matters what way your facing etc...
I have never seen Livingstone's inscription, if you can mark that on the map/aerial view that would be really helpful.
The mines exiting the hillside near the site of the old manor (the ones mentioned in Carey's first post), from what you have described Carey the following location is where I think you are talking of when it comes to the ones facing the river:
The talk of a tunnel under the castle is supported by document evidence which I have quoted from the book 'Bothwell Castle' earlier in the thread. If anything exists recording the 1970's investigations it will still be with the uni I think. I have not seen anything in any books. Although I do believe I read a RCAHMS report on mines there. I will look it up, it may relate to the 1970's explorations.
I will post back.
If any ancient tunnel existed leading from the castle, then it without doubt originated from the Donjon. This was the building where the most important people stayed which was protected from internal attacks by its own moat. All detailed stories of the tunnel relate to the donjon, and it sits perfectly opposite the priory site. It is a very deeply excavated building.
I recall that Bothwell Castle was at one time under siege. As one of the techniques of the time was to mine underneath the walls and create an explosion, might the tunnels in the Earl's Gate area have been ones that were started for that purpose?
As Earl's Gate is now a building site for 22 house plots, it is possible that the current works have uncovered something. A discussion with the site agent could at least assist in confirming the absence of tunnels in the area being developed.
The records recording the sieges are quite detailed. There is nothing saying that tunnels were dug specifically. Did they use explosives in the 13th century??? What is recorded says that they built a huge wooden tower on wheels which they wheeled from Glasgow to take over the castle. They used 'the wood of Glasgow' (plundered) to build it. However, a number of 'expert stone masons' were also hired to help breach the 'Great Donjon' whether they did this by removing 'key stones' or digging tunnels I have not been able to trace. If such a tunnel was used for undermining the building during a siege, and this was one of the tunnels known to exist today, then surely an archeaological record would exist. Having searched all normal, and obscure sources I have found no such record. Earlier in the thread, I posted a quote which claims at least one mine certainly led under the castle. No mines are shown on any old 19th century OS maps.
The story of an escape tunnel long predates coal mining shafts and tunnels certainly for this region. The story would not have stemmed from such stories. It would be very easy to tell the difference between such passages. An escape route would be neater and direct, a mine however is erratic, as the miners searched and followed the seams. Also a mine is crude, only built for semi-permanent use, and the tunnels are generally very steep. The many stories of the escape route all mention walls, and vaulting. It would be difficult for our archaic ancestors, having utter lack of any tunnels or mines in this region for inspiration, to imagine such a story as a vaulted passage under the clyde! Such an idea could be compared to H.G. Wells, but for an earlier period. Such visionary ideas would likely have been carried out by ingenious castle builders, to repeat from central Europe.
It would certainly be a lot easier to determine its purpose if we had a tunnel to look at, and could eliminate other constructions, such as the abandoned drains of the second Bothwell Castle and its gardens. As part of this investigation, would it be possible for you to mark on the map (once it is feeling well again) the location of the corners of that building?
One aspect of a possible tunnel that intrigues me is how the 13th century builders might have considered draining the tunnel, given that it needed to be some distance below the surface of the river, and keeping it permanently dry enough for emergency use.
I agree. It would seem stupid to construct such a tunnel. However, if you do the research on similar escape routes, many castle escape tunnels led into sea caves which flooded regularly. It is said that some youths knew of the tunnel under the Clyde years ago and would waterproof potato sacks by tarring them, and then traverse a flooded part of the passage.
To be completely flood proof the tunnel would have to exit somewhere quite high on the Blantyre Priory side. What I find more amazing, is if such a tunnel exists how did they plan it whilst underground?
Anyway, the location of the later Bothwell Castle House is easy
I am concerned confusion is arising. It would be nice to order the number of possible tunnels including mines. There is talk of this tunnel, that tunnel, this mine, etc...
It would be good to mark the positions on Flash Earth. If you google that site, then find a position with the crosshair at the centre. Right click then choose permanent link, then copy the browser link into your post. Make sure you choose the aerial photography and not NASA images, as it only goes in so far with them.
This is the bit that niggles at me; in an era when the only cement available was Limestone mortar, which had to be kept dry due to its violent reaction to water, how long would it have taken them to build masonry in a permanently damp tunnel, what was the casualty rate like and what was deemed acceptable? I know sappers existed for sieges, but the tunnels they were used to building weren't designed to be permanent. Then there's the size; I can't imagine it being more than three feet wide and about six tall, since it was only for escape purposes, so only a maximum of about two men would have been able to work on advancing it at any one time. It would have been logical to use logs to prop the roof up, but would they just have started the stonework on bare earth or laid paving slabs of some mind as a base? And how would they have managed that in such a confined space? Or am I just thinking too hard?
The clyde at this point flows over many bands of stone, some hard, some soft. Even the soft ones are very hard to penetrate with water, and it would only be fissures in such rocks which would cause concern. As for the hard rocks, well they cannot be penetrated.
Also if the vaulting was simple enough they may not have used any mortar. Did they have access to roman cement (waterproof) in the 13th century???
We must remeber as well that no matter how trivial the task, in those days attitudes were much different; Centuries ago great artists took great time to make all manners of things beautiful: paintings, architecture etc... Bothwell Castle obviously required a lot of thought in terms of its aesthetics, and it was designed to be the beautiful building in Christendom.
Its not unreasonable to suppose that if there is any truth to the story of this tunnel, that there may not have been any vaulting or bricks..., it may just simply have been a tunnel. If it does exist we have no idea how deep under the rock it goes. I agree that it is probably very narrow and much cruder than legend suggests if it is real.
I know the ancients were capable of remarkable maths and accuracy, but sadly the same did not apply to our 13th century Scottish/English ancestors. I find it hard to think about how it would have been planned.
Also, if it is there, where on earth does it come out on the blantyre side. Logic dictates it would be some way above water, but there is hardly any horizontal space between Blantyre Craig and the water, and this layout would have compounded planning even more!
with the building extending from there in a north-north-easterly direction. The area covered by the recently demolished 1970s houses in fact.! Unfortunately, it is right on the edge of my old map, and I can't currently find the sheet to the north.
During the 1950s and 1960s when I was there with the Scouts, we gathered underneath a huge chestnut tree which was close to the top of the escarpment down to the river, very close to this area. I have recollections of low stonework, maybe only two blocks high, that were in effect just retaining walls for a slightly higher level of ground. I will try to locate the tree (or its stump) on the ground so that I can place my memories of the area on the current layout.
Not sure if Roman concrete had been rediscovered this far north in the 13th century. I suppose there could have been a vertical access shaft on one riverbank, but that would add to the drainage problems mentioned earlier. Could have disguised it as a 'well'. There's a set of Mediaeval caves somewhere around Beescraigs country park that were accessed via a vertical shaft (now sealed).
I always thought that the well in the base of the Great Donjon may play a part in the castle side of such a tunnel. Without doubt any such tunnel would originate in the donjon, which is itself deeply excavated.
On the Blantyre Priory side however: The Priory ruins are marked on most old maps, but no map marks a Well! Where did they get their drinking water at the priory? A few old antiquarian books describe a Spring below Blantyre Craig. Could other springs, or this spring have been channelled through a Well nearby, and have concealed such a passage?
Also may I point out here: In the late Neil Gordon's book 'Blantyre An Historical Dictionary' - he claims under the heading of subterraneous passage, that speculation has long insisted the that a large boulder thats blocking what appears to be a cave is thought to conceal the entrance to this tunnel. It apparently sits somewhere in the corner of the ravine.
I wonder if we are all now doing just exactly what the 13th century builders set us up to do ...... ?
That is, looking for a tunnel to Blantyre Priory when no such thing exists, and the REAL escape tunnel goes somewhere else entirely. I can just imagine the commander of the besieging troops sending a sizeable detachment across the river to set up around the Priory to wait for the "Important People" to emerge. This would weaken the force around the castle and reduce the resistance to any outbreak by the inhabitants. The troops at the Priory would take some time to get back to the castle to provide reinforcements.
How deep is the bottom floor of the Donjon in relation to the "usual" river level? Starting a tunnel from the well and rising slightly would solve all the drainage problems. The outside end could even be backfilled for the last few yards so that undergrowth would conceal its existence. Any spy in the castle would be most unlikely to spot the start of the tunnel, especially if it was placed below an overhang, or simply walled up with thin masonry. Even if open, if it was running with water it would likely be taken for part of the water supply, and not an exit.
What would need to be involved in getting a video camera and lights lowered down the well? Possibly also a pump as current water level could be higher than design level. Who knows what interesting artefacts might be at the bottom??
The base of the great Donjon is still a considerable way above river level. Also I do not believe the well's water level would rise, would it? Unless the water was under pressure, it would just stay alittle above the level of the water-bearing layer of rock it originates from. Correct me if this is wrong.
However the well probably goes much deeper than the base of the donjon, and such a passage would have to originate in that building, safe from internal attacks. If the well goes deep enough it could rise to the other side.
The water level in a well that is not being used will settle slightly higher than the water table in the surrounding ground. However, that water table will change naturally over time.
In the area in question there has been extensive mining in the last 200 years. The flow of water through, and collapse of, the spaces created will have had an effect on the water table. It could be higher or lower than when the well was built, and by up to two or three meters even.
To start to work it out would require knowledge of where mines went, and at what depths, and of the rock inclination and faults in the surrounding area. A bit beyond our collective resources. However, I would expect the inside face of the well to show wear from the movement of the water surface during its 100s of years of operational use, and this would be a simpler way to determine what change there may have been in level.
There shouldn't be any problem sending a camera down on a wire during a normal visit, although the water level could pose problems. It is not as if anything is being disturbed.
The geological surveys using OS data from the late 1800's are excellent, but I do not have a sheet covering Bothwell Castle. I believe the statistical accounts record the strata really well to. However the inclinations might be harder to track.
After visiting the priory site last night, I could only find one boulder blocking an entrance. This is a natural rock void filled with a collapsed boulder and is perfectly natural. It exists in the tributary ravine on the north side of the Priory promontory. I have little doubt that this is the 'cave' spoken of by Fred Mitchell. This really does not do the man justice because it is ludicrous to think this as a tunnel entrance. I doubt he was describing anything else.
Interesting to look at the face of Blantyre Craig with the Christ carvings. I could also see lots of old climbing pitons and the carving of David Livingstone is rather good.
Did you happen to take any photos of the David Livingston carving.
Despite being repeatedly assured that this is there by others, I have been unable to locate this in previous visits - I suspect I have managed to look everywhere except the correct spot, or suffered selective blindness while staring straight at it
Can you give a clue as to where one should look, using perhaps the reclining figure as a reference point to start from?
Interesting considering I found it in the pitch black! LOL!
It is situated shortly south of the first Christ Carving on the vertical sheer face at about head height. If you are not sure of your bearings, thats facing the crag, to the left of the first Christ carving. It is a profile depiction of the man, with an explorer's sun hat or whatever its called. You know the sort World War I soldiers wore in Egypt. It is not as worn as some descriptions suggest. It is in plain view.
Apparently on the Castle side of the Clyde there are other carvings mentioned by someone who knew Tommy Hawkins, but I have seen no descriptions or pictures, and that is saying something considering I have seen practically every reference work, manuscript, photograph etc.. If any information exists, it is in private hands. If anybody knows more please tell me where to find the others.
THE FOLLOWING RELATES TO THE MAIN THEME OF THIS THREAD:
Quoted from : By Bothwell Banks, by GEORGE HENDERSON AND J. JEFFREY WADDELL. 1904
"It must be confessed that the foregoing details leave unsolved the great question of the nature of the relationship between the castle and the priory. Both were built about the same time, and in a position, as we have already seen, which forces the conclusion home upon us that it was chosen by deliberate design, and yet history gives us no hint of that close connexion which we should expect In any case each would be affected by the fortune of the other, alike in war and in peace. With the castle, the priory yielded to the strong tide of invasion, and in the hour of victory for the national cause the strains of triumph would float
"O'er the arched gate of Bothwell proad, While many a minstrel answered load ; When Blantyre hymned her holiest lays, And Bothwll bards flung back their praise."
Tradition has supplied the missing link by creating an underground passage between the castle and the priory, which has been turned to account in the domain of fiction by Jane Porter in her ' Scottish Chiefs." While this has been generally scouted, it is as well to remember that no systematic exploration has been made of the priory, and until that has been done it is as well to avoid any dogmatic statement on the subject. Besides the tradition of the subaqueous passage, there is one to the effect that the Scottish patriot, William Wallace, once took refuge here from his pursuers his hiding place was suspected, the priory was surrounded on at least two of its sides, and Wallace was compelled to leap from the rocky precipice on which the priory stands. Until recent years, a hollow from which a spring issued, bearing a rude resemblance to a gigantic human foot, was pointed out as the spot where be had alighted. This legend may have some foundation in fact It is probable that the great patriot in his wanderings may have taken refruge here, and may have escaped either by means of a rope or some equally practical method."
May I humbly point out that "first Christ Carving" has no meaning unless you have the person that you are describing it to is standing beside you looking at the same thing, your "first" carving could be my last depending how I approach, that's why I tried to hint at pointers in relation to a specific feature
It's like saying "higher up the hill" etc when trying to pinpoint something for a stranger - they're still lost if they're not standing at the same place on the hill as you.
Still, the main thing is it's been seen, although I don't envy you a visit there in the dark.
I've passed some unsavoury characters there in the light, groups of hoodies, found recently trashed cars dumped only metres away, seen evidence that the cars were vandalised/burnt only days before one of my visits, and found the place to be used as a drinking den on other occasions. I run away from it when dusk falls
I've been given the same suggestion of other carving from those passing on repeated information, or hearesay, but no first hand visitors have reported or pointed at them, and I was not offered any similar information from Mr Hawkins relatives when I was in contact, so I'm beginning to think these are stories, of the same type that used to attribute the carvings to Bud Hawkins, and not Tommy.
On the other hand, I never say never, and they may just be "lost"
THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE taken from the forum on Blantyres Ain Website, its by susan irvine.
"tommy hawkins ..blantyre carvings
Hello
having visited these carvings when i was a young child. i can confirm that it was tommy hawkins..who was bud's wee brother that carved them,
the reason i know as my mother was 7 when he was a very close friend of the family and thats when he started carving them...my mum is now 54......so the carvings are roughly 47-55 yrs old.
every day tommy went down there with his chisel and a wee widden hammer .....but he never told anyone what he was doing....my mum is sure he done a livingstone carving the reason why ppl arnt sure/unaware of it is because he didnt want publicity or fame later on he denied the carvings because of this....but he did do a little one of susan irvine from northway who was his close friend and my grandmother,
ps....the other carvings are scattered about down there....ones that no-one has took pictures of... u just need to have a good rumage..
pps theres one near bothwell castle
any questions dont hesistate take drop me a wee line
boyle761@btinternet.com"
This website also features a photograph of Tommy working on the carvings. I am myself an artist, and my family, who I am close to, are unaware of many pieces of art I have done. Also, when you consider Tommy Hawkins was so secretive, I would not think stories from his relatives would be reliable.
The carving of Livingstone can be located as follows:
Facing the rock face from the river, the livingstone carving is situated to the left of the first carving depicting the entombment. It is not right beside the entombment, but about halfway along the vertical face of Blantyre Craig. above the carving are many climbing pitons. It is situated at about head height, and is a carving in profile of him looking south (left).
Furthest to the right of all the carvings is a rock-face featuring many scribbled carvings of initials done by others. There is also a profile carving of what looks like a policeman there, but it is so crude I do not believe Tommy Hawkins did it.
I will be going back during the day sometime to try and find all the carvings. I have found over 12 carvings in East Kilbride & Greenhall, including cup & ring marks so if my keen artistic eye is as good as I think it is, I will try to find all of them this year and report back on secret Scotland with photos. If any of you can help guide me, I will try my best. It seems the mystery of what, and how many carvings exist is annoying a few people.
Having visited the site it seems there is little room between the water and Blantyre Craig. It will take some amount of investigation before any possible tunnels are found.
Having visited the site it seems there is little room between the water and Blantyre Craig. It will take some amount of investigation before any possible tunnels are found.
I remember clambering about there one day and thinking wtf am I doing? If I'd slipped and fallen into the Clyde I'd have droont. Be very careful.
I've beeen digging deeply in my old files and found the pics I took way back in April 05' but first here is one of the high water mark near the castle discussed earlier in the thread. I can't remember if its my photo or Apollo's.
And a view from the carvings across to the castle (donjon) which gives an idea of how far it is.
A couple of 'public domain' views of the priory remains.
The pics of the carvings I have are almost identical to those on the Sesco main site so its not worth posting them here as the only difference is the state of the grass!
Yes the 'big flood' of the Clyde. There are other things down there to, like carved hollows in the cliffside for placing religious icons, and other stuff. The flora of Bothwell Castle woodland is also magnificant, and was celebrated during the 18th-19th centuries.
When the carvings at Blantyre Craig were first carved they were quite detailed. You have probably seen the black & white photo on the secret Scotland Wiki.
Yes, one must always be careful in such places, especially if the person is unnacustomed to such terrains. I have been rambling about in far worse places for years, so I am quite sure footed. I forget these days just how easy it can be to take the wrong step. I always have thought that when you do it constantly every footstep is a complex calculation of balance, angle, grip, etc... Some people may know what I mean. With a depth of water as that part of the Clyde, I get creeped big time. I hate deep dark water.
Has anybody seen the other carvings other than those of Christ? I have seen the Livingstone carving, and I know there is apparently one of a wee girl (see above postings) who Tommy Hawkins knew. Apart from these I am assured there are others, but the people who have seen them have not done so in years.
Although I wouldn't class the carving access as dangerous - apart from one narrow section I would acknowledge as being an "edge" - the main thing the short access route demands is reasonable fitness and a bit of mountain goat gene.
That said, even an apparently low risk location can have serious consequences, and I make no apologies for posting the following link to a tribute which summarises the loss of someone I had been acquainted with, and was lost in tragic circumstances while pursuing a hobby which gave him great pleasure:
That's a terrible loss, no apologies indeed, its a wake up call many people need.
Anybody who does dangerous tasks regularly can become used to them to the point of becoming blind to the apparent danger. You may start off by walking say 10 feet away from a precipice, and before you know it two years down the line you regularly traverse precipices within 2 feet of the drop without batting an eyelid. Ground could always collapse, you could always miss the odd gap. One moment of lost attention can equal death. Having said that, I would say the slope down to the carvings is relatively easy and staying away from the deep water is common sense unless you can swim. As for the priory site the situation changes. When it comes to completely sheer drops I generally can't go near them, without climbing gear, and a back-up line. Some of my archive photos have required that, so that was a bit arduous.
I would generally say that the most innaccessible areas often hide the greatest wonders. If you find James Brown's Flickr Site which I posted the link for in this thread you will see what I mean.
The earlier post and pic of the high level mark has reminded of a couple of items relating to the spot.
The area we see today is quite different to that which may have been seen only a few decades ago.
The first point would be establish the date of the collapse of the Blantyre Priory bing.
I think this was the recognised name (but happy to be corrected) of a bing related to the nearby pit, but which has been cleared, leaving no evidence of its existence. This appears to have been a significant bing, (were there any that were not? ), but all the more so for its collapse, which appears to have occurred in the early 1960s - possibly even a little earlier - and said to have significantly changed the appearance of the river in the area of the priory and castle.
This would appear to be true of the castle (which would have been on the opposite bank), as there was a set of stone steps set to the right of the carving which carries the 1782 Clyde level mark shown in the photograph above. Not only has the stone stairway been wiped out of existence, so has the stone base that it led to.
The second point may relate to any tunnels that may have existed prior to the existence of the bing, its collapse, and subsequent clearance.
The creation, and later collapse, of the bing could have destroyed any ancient tunnel in the adjacent ground, and the the clearance of the collapsed bing, which has clearly changed the recent (in terms of decades) appearance of the area, could have resulted in the obscuration of any evidence that may have remained, making examination today meaningless.
Although I don't have the newspaper, I do have the diary records of someone interested in the area at the, and this refers both to the collapse of the bing, and its clearance, which featured in the newspaper. Unfortunately, it was written retrospectively, hence dates could not be fixed.
There are also some notes regarding discussions with the castle custodian at the time (1950s - 1960s), and while there is mention of some (proven) subjects which still remain secret or hidden in the area, there is no mention of a tunnel in these notes, and I know the discussions would have been fairly long - this is why I haven't really joined in the tunnel debate, being predisposed to the negative, but happy to watch.
I can guarantee that the collapse of the bing had little or no impact on the immediate area surrounding the priory site, although the river was affected for a while. The damage really all happened south of the site on the bend at that point. I beleive the platform & stairs you speak of were those down to the old boathouse and landing quay. which is depicted in many old engravings and paintings/drawings of the Castle. As that was a popular spot to view it from.
North of the carving not very much damage was done. Unless the possible tunnel was in a completely different area to the one suspected, this collapse would have had little effect on the site. Sure, the river was flooded with debris which washed considerably downstream, but this took time and went bit by bit.
It would be interesting to know more about these proven yet secret facts you are aware of. As far as I am aware, the castle worker in the 1950's was very reluctant to tell anyone about the tunnel (if it exists), as he had some involvment with it. Or so rumour says. Apparently the caretaker at that time was one of the youths who knew of the tunnel in the 30's but did not tell of it so as to keep it accessible. This could all well be lies though.
Personal private items like diaries, and papers kept by families are always one of a kind and not accessible to people like myself. If you would like to provide some info of the other areas, then please do.
Think of Aberfan, but without the houses and disaster.
I had been hoping you would have been the one to come up with the date, as it apparently was significant enough to make the papers at the time (presumably Glasgow papers), unfortunately, those I have the notes from are no longer with us, so I can only go on the scraps of information I can glean from their handwriting.
I've not had much luck hunting this down, but will try again.
hello i made a mistake about the house at bothwell castle with the tunnel in garden, definately number 5 but not house nearest castle as this was a white and black one which i believe is now demolised too and next one down was the weisfeld house (them that owned what every women wants) which was the 1 st to be demolished, i the back garden of number 5 you could walk out a gate at the back and walk to the castle along a wire fence towards the donjon if you turned left at the castle you come to the begining of nature trail along the river at the begining there is a black gate you have to walk you bike through if you look up towards the hill where the original houses that have now or are being demolished on your left hand side there were tunnels here overgrown and thay would extend into the gardens of these houses, i am sorry i do not know how to do the map thing the tunnels are at th begining of this path the house where they built the bothwell mansion next to the walled garden is still about 1/2 mile away if you followed the path you would end up at old mansion walled garden. re david livingstone graffiti it is on the wall high up facing the river the long wall between the castles the curtain wall ? you can google this for correct location. i had athought if you wanted to do some research it was hurry brothers that used to be on the road Glasgow that owned that house with the tunnels i believe when they sold the house they moved to Florida , but i believe their sons took over the company thier shop is now a kwick save or lidl something like that its on 63 bus route but i believe they still have a lamp business in Glasow same name maybe you coud find out from them, Also remember the first known miners were monks from the priory. i heard about the uni and the tunnels from warden at the casle but i also read about it on a postcard they used to sell at the casle shop if i think of anything else will let you know
Do you by any chance know of any of the other owners of the houses down there?
I'm interested in finding out if one belongs, or belonged to, the owner (probably former owner now) of a foundry out towards Edinburgh, and who I believed owned a large house down there.
Hurry Brothers, the business at least, is a little way along the road from me, in premises behind a petrol station on the London Road, to the South of Tollcross. Still seems to be doing well, and even managed to sell me a tiny piece of patterned glass to replace a piece lost thanks to a bunch of drunken neds which decided the best way to tidy their empty beer bottles from the street was to launch them at the our houses one late night.
The first point would be establish the date of the collapse of the Blantyre Priory bing.
I think this was the recognised name (but happy to be corrected) of a bing related to the nearby pit, but which has been cleared, leaving no evidence of its existence. This appears to have been a significant bing, (were there any that were not? ), but all the more so for its collapse, which appears to have occurred in the early 1960s - possibly even a little earlier - and said to have significantly changed the appearance of the river in the area of the priory and castle.
The second point may relate to any tunnels that may have existed prior to the existence of the bing, its collapse, and subsequent clearance.
The creation, and later collapse, of the bing could have destroyed any ancient tunnel in the adjacent ground, and the the clearance of the collapsed bing, which has clearly changed the recent (in terms of decades) appearance of the area, could have resulted in the obscuration of any evidence that may have remained, making examination today meaningless.
Although I don't have the newspaper, I do have the diary records of someone interested in the area at the, and this refers both to the collapse of the bing, and its clearance, which featured in the newspaper. Unfortunately, it was written retrospectively, hence dates could not be fixed.
Thanks to the 1946 RAF photo - link provided by Ed Boyle on the Blantrye AA battery thread
I had a closer look at the 1946 aerial view mentioned, and found the detail of the path from the gatehouse leading the newer Bothwell Castle House (demolished) interesting.
Unlike the present day view, the 1946 version clearly shows both the gatehouse and the path to the house clearly, neither of which can really be seen in the modern view thanks to increased vegetation and woods. The old gasworks has now gone as well, and can't be missed in the old view.
Sadly, the golf club has hijacked the gatehouse for itslelf, and while it used to be a pristine relic, now has the name of the golf club emblazoned above the doorway, in big white letters driven into the original stone face.
You can even see this in Google Street View, which has driven past the door, and the letters don't do a thing to improve the view.
I suppose the only consolation is that the golf club will have plenty of superfluous cash to maintain the gatehouse... maybe, for a few years, until they get fed up with the cost of looking after their new feature.
I didn't even catch an inkling of that in the view when I took a quick glance.
Clearly pays to stop and take an extra moment or two
I like bings, spent half my childhood palying on one so couldn't miss the beauts on that air recon pic. In fact I was rambling over some ironstone bings today .............. no cure for it apparently
I now know what you mean by 'collapse'. It must have been a bit of a job getting the waste out of the river considering it was down a steep bank.
I'm surprised at how close to the castle bend in the river this incident has proven to be. From the wordy stuff that went before, I had pictured this as being further to the east. The actual slip is much closer to the point we were opposite.
The date is also an important point. Again, merely from the handwritten notes I was going through, these distinctly mentioned the 1960s, but that must either have been a bad recollection, or maybe what was being read was was a feature on a past event.
I remember the "good old days" when newspapers had writers that wrote such articles to interest and educate readers, unlike the pointless volumes of celebrity twaddle that they now all fight to write about first.
If we can pin down a year I'll have a look up of the Glasgow Herald next time I'm in the Mitchell library. Its an interesting event, for me at least!. It must have been quite spectacular because it looks as if it more than halved the river channel.
If you go to the website for the National Archives of Scotland and search their catalogue for the exact phrase 'Bothwell Castle'. Listed is all the entries for records relating to Bothwell Castle Colliery. I am sure these records will include plans of where they were. Due the extensive nature of the entries, I would assume all paperwork relating to that colliery went to the NAS.
A similar search for Blantyre Priory only brings up scheduling information for the priory as a monument.
[1] records relating to Bothwell Castle Colliery. I am sure these records will include plans of where they were.
[2] Due the extensive nature of the entries, I would assume all paperwork relating to that colliery went to the NAS.
[1]Where what were? I thought the thread was about a tunnel from the castle to the priory.
[2]As far as I know the Coal Authority archive in Mansfield houses the records of the NCB/British Coal including all underground plans. The British Geological Survey in Edinburgh do have copies of some pre 1947 plans on microfilm too.
Forgive me, I mean where all the mines were. The topic of mines in the Bothwell Castle area appears to popular on this thread. Accessing these records in the future would help to rule out the mines to help focus attention on any true tunnels, if they exist.
The following are listed without reference to NCB/British Coal
Records of Bothwell Castle Colliery Dates 1949-1959
Closure of Bothwell Castle Colliery Dates 1949-1953
Plans (2) of Bothwell Castle No. 2 Pit. Court of Session Records
Photostat copy of plan of policies of Bothwell Castle 1781, Surveyor: William Douglas
Photostat copy of plan of Bothwell Castle Colliery Nos. 3 and 4 Pits showing ground damaged on lands of Bothwell Castle as at Whitsunday. Dates 1912. Surveyors: McCreaths & Stevenson
Plans of coalworkings at Bothwell Castle, Dec 1931, Unattributed. Plans wire stitched together. Records of the Ministry of Public Building and Works (Scottish Headquarters)
The NAS seem to have bits & pieces and you may find if you ask South Lanarkshire archives in E.K. that they might have some old plans from pre -1872 days but I'm not sure if the Blantyre coalfield was open then.
Have a read at this page on the Coal Authority site.
Their prices are ridiculously expensive, really quite a disgrace.
As far as I am aware the National Archives of Scotland have copies of ALL the coal mine plans of mines under the estates surrounding the Calderglen Valley. I am sure of this. They have: Torrance, Crossbasket, Milheugh, Lodgehill,.. the list goes on. The thorough nature of that collection leads me to believe that the records mentioned on NAS may represent ALL records copied from the relevant coal authorities. The names of the NAS records certainly suggest a thorough collection indeed. I am putting my neck out here, but I am sure that the NAS have copies of some, if not all of the relevant records for the Bothwell Mines. There would be no reference to the Coal Board because the collierys were all independant until 1947.
Many will never know because any sufficient amount of information from the current authority would represent hundreds, if not thousands of pounds.
I think all relevant records are with NAS.
Sadly, SLC Archives in EK have practically nothing regarding mines in Calderglen EK. a pet subject of mine. All the records are with NAS for Calderglen as I have mentioned. I am unsure if SLC Archives have anything for Bothwell Castle, but it is certainly worth looking. As I said the NAS records look promising.
There will always be exceptions: Basket Farm, High Blantyre had extensive Ironstone Mines, the records of which were kept in the farm until it was burned down. Now the records for those mines do not exist. The only copies known were kept at the farm. I am sure there are loads of instances like this.
As for pre 1870's thats tricky. Old OS maps list hundreds of sites all over the west of Scotland of quarries and mines which never had records because the were 18th-early 19th century, or even much older. Coal was mined all over Blantyre, Bothwell, East Kilbride on a small scale by local proprietors for sale. Shafts, audits, and level tunnels were known for many of these mines. I am sure Captain Brittles you may have seen a few of these. There are probably a few pre 19th century coal mine tunnels kicking about the Bothwell Castle area which either lay undiscovered or have caused conjecture over tunnel legends for years.
I guess it is just a case of sifting through all this info slowly but surely. It would be nice to draw up a layered OS map showing these mines. I would take great pleasure in doing so.
When we were constructing the M74 past Larkhall, working a face up the big cutting past the golf course, we encountered coal seams and the remains of bell-pits. As this was unexpected, work was stopped while it was examined for historic significance. By next morning all the coal was gone! I knew there were allegedly many strange things in Larkhall - but now fairies! Another day's work uncovered more coal, and again it disappeared during darkness. We were told at the time that the original workers were probably mediaeval monks. Navigator
I can confirm that there is a tunnel at Bothwell castle and as i have seen it with my own eyes. I went to school with the son of the owner of the mansion and the tunnel enterance is not in the castle but in the tree line to the left of the castle with the Cylde behind, The enterance is a small opening and it was stone line with large block, I did go down it but only 15 to 20 feetas you were on your hands and knees. The lad that showed me it said that it was water logged at the bottom and that it split into two passages.
I do not remember Mark, who lived in the mansion ever telling me about the tunnels in the garden but I think he was there when I was shown it. At the back of the house there was a large feild and it was over that fence and into the tree line.
I currrently live down south but will be coming up shortly and would be interested if anybody else is in going to the castle and finding the enterance again.
You say a tunnel at Bothwell Castle. Presumably you mean near the castle as by your description of its approximate location? Anyway what you advise of is not under the Clyde as proposed by Calaterium.
I'd be up for a jaunt down that way again to have a look.
The tunnel was on a slope and was made from some large slabs of sand stone and it was heading down the slope at about a 30 Deg angle. I was told by the person that showed me it that it went unber the Cylde to Blantre. As for the other tunnel that have been reported in the gargen of the Hurry Bros I can not confirm this but today I have made contact and I am waiting for a call back from the school freind that lived in the mansion and I will find out from Mark about the reports that he and his brother found them and that his dad filled them in.
hope this helps
Does anyone know if Cataterium is about as I would like to get him involed as he was the one who started it !!!
Apollo, how near the castle was that ice house we visited years ago? There was a small adit to carry the melt away down the hill, i'm wondering if that could be mistaken for a tunnel.
I think it is important we make the distinction here. This thread has been more than I have hoped for. There is the ancient legend of the escape tunnel and then there are the more recent mining tunnels which exist for sure. The tunnel you speak of David sounds like it is one of a number of mining tunnels which certainly existed. I do believe the tunnel you speak of David has been mentioned earlier in this thread, ie on the slope amongst the trees, as opposed to the garden. I am sure it will be a mine, and I am not surprised it goes either partially or fully under the Clyde. Any tunnel which would have been constructed in the time of the castle, if such a tunnel exists, will appear obvious. Such a tunnel would bear ancient crude stonework, possible vaulting etc... If there was logs further down the tunnel you speak of David then it is more likely to be a mine. If no timber buildings of Glasgow exist from the 13th century, then the chances of an obscure tunnel at Bothwell supported by logs dating from this time is unlikely due to dampness, land shifts etc... That is not to say however that the tunnel/mine you speak of is not exciting, quite the contrary, its fantastic!!
I think it is very unlikely that mine tunnels inspired the old story of the escape tunnel. I do think that any mines may have maintained the old legend into modern times of the last century, but as for the original old legend, it stems from books spanning the 18th-early 19th century. It is unlikely any mine tunnels and shafts in this region date from this time. The proper introduction of such mines into our area only really started in the mid 19th century, and these mines were practically always marked on the OS maps. However it seems the whole area of Bothwell Castle escaped such recording which is very strange. Hence the persisting legend, when these 'newer' tunnels are stumbled across! If any mining efforts from prior to the mid 19th century do exist in the region of Bothwell/Blantyre/East Kilbride etc.., then they would consist of the following sorts of workings: Quarries, bell-pit quarries, very crude rounded audits which extend perhaps for a maximum of 20 feet and reresented low effort scavenging of surface thin coal. If a mine consisting of pillar rooms, squared shafts, and multiple tunnels does exist at Bothwell, and dates from prior to the mid 19th century, then it would represent an expensive effort based on no known discovery of large coal deposits at that time, and such a working would have records for sure. No such records can be traced by myself and I have looked in a lot of places. Therefore my deduction is that there are unmapped coal mines at Bothwell Castle dating from between 1850-1920, and more likely from around the 1870-90's. I believe it was a private affair linked to the then private estate, and that all records were kept there, and not really disclosed to locals, therefore the mystery. Bothwell Castle has always been a tourist attraction, and subsidance from coal mining spelled the end of the mansion, and seriously threatened the old castle. As such, I believe it was well known during the late 1800's-early 1900's that these mines were there, and that there was local curiosity regarding them. I think the owners of the castle who opened it to the public would have tried to keep as quiet about these tunnels as possible for safety.
My thoughts are that H.M. Inspector of Mines would have known of any coal mining around the castle however small in scale. H.M. Inspectors produced yearly reports of all mining operations in their areas, detailing locations, coal seams mined, manpower both underground and surface. Separate reports record accidents and fatalities. With typical Victorian thoroughness they missed nothing.
One other point is that every coal seam abandoned after 1872 had to - by law - be notified to the Home Office.
I completely agree, and it is interesting to repeat the following from the pamphlet book: Bothwell Castle Lanarkshire, W. Douglas Simpson, Her Majesty's Stationary Office, 1958
"The ruined castle still belongs to the Earl of Home, but in 1935 was placed by the proprietor under the guardianship of H.M. Office of Works (now Ministry of Public Building and Works), by which the great fabric has now been placed in a state of thorough repair. At one time the safety of the ruins was gravelly menaced by coal mining. It will be seen the walls are in places much cracked, but serious damage was fortunately averted, and the foundations are now believed to be stable again."
Could it be possible that these two linked organisations were working together to cover up the fact of the mines so as to promote the tourist attraction of Bothwell Castle? Also, extensive mining existed at Basket Farm near High Blantyre, and very little is documented in available records. All the known records were kept in the farm which burnt down a number of years back destroying the records. So there must be many other such exclusions.
Also, am I right in thinking that any known mines had to be mapped by the Ordnance Survey, especially considering it is and was controlled by the crown? I know that many 19th century mines, and most 18th century workings are excluded from the OS maps.
I was not aware of the Home Office fact. Judging from what has been gathered in this thread so far, the mines in question will probably date from 1850-1870 approx. Too early to be recorded, but possibly late enough to represent extensive Victorian mining. Another possibility is that it is an extensive early mine (1700-1830's which is historically important, and was probably funded and controlled by the mansion owners. Or it could be one of those early Dukes of Hamilton run mines which were quite extensive... All very interesting.
I think a joint polite cover up from those two organisations may have something to do with this.
my deduction is that there are unmapped coal mines at Bothwell Castle dating from between 1850-1920, and more likely from around the 1870-90's. I believe it was a private affair linked to the then private estate, and that all records were kept there, and not really disclosed to locals, therefore the mystery.
Which is why I referred to H.M.I. Mines (Western District).
"At one time the safety of the ruins was gravelly menaced by coal mining. It will be seen the walls are in places much cracked, but serious damage was fortunately averted, and the foundations are now believed to be stable again."
At one time? If was at all then that never went away. Underground workings are always there although they might 'stabilise' - which means they have done so after subsidence has taken place. There is little sign of any subsidence due to coal mining having taken place at Bothwell Castle. I'm no geologist but I'd bet it is built on top of a strata of firm sandstone and so I'd wager that the 1935 report was looking at 700 years of wear and tear and asigning what it saw to the popular culprit - of the times - called coal mining.
I think that you could well be right about the assumption of the staff back then, but some posts on this thread refer to a tunnel which led inside Bothwell Castle, which could just be kids telling tales. As for the mine I think the date range of 1850-1870 would explain why no easily accessible records are available, but all existing annecdotal evidence points to well-constructed extensive mines. It helps narrow down a likely date of the mines. However, if it is an extensive early mine (1700-1830's) then this is far more exciting, and could explain why any University investigations went on.
I am still waiting to hear from my school friend, Mark Borland who lived in the hurry bros mansion and is now the MD of hurry bros to confirm if any tunnels were found in the garden and if his father fill them in.
Will let you all know when I talk to him and confirm one way or anther.
Hello all. I have spoken with Mark Borland about the rummer that he and is brother found tunnel in the grounds of the mansion and that his father fill them in. I can confirm that this is a rummer and that it never happened, at least it is one part of the story that can be put to bed. I also spoke to Mark about the tunnel/mine which I talk about and can confrim that Mark agrees with me about the construction, ie sandstone lined and also the rough position of the enterance.
On the point of "extensive mines", of whatever vintage. Where did the waste material go? I have never seen any indication of spoil heaps on the area around the castle.
I am still not sure that what I have seen is a mine entrance as it was a very tight squeeze as a kid to get into the tunnel and once inside it was on your hands and knees. I know that in days of old kids were sent down mines but the entrance would have made it were hard to remove any coal. Also the way it was constructed ie, slabs of sandstone I would have thought that it was constructed with a open trench and then back fill as I can not see how the slab would have been built if it was a true tunnel.
After speaking to Mark he mentioned that in the castle there is a picture of the original house which was a timber building, could it be possible that the tunnel that I saw was a drain leading down the hill to Clyde
Due to the picturesque quality of the area, and aesthetic demands of the landholders I am sure they would have made sure that once any mining activities were over, the spoil and such would be cleared away and landscaped. This was a normal practice with most mines & quarries in proximity to old houses. Also, due to the date of the old Mansion, it is likely such mines were around at the time of the buildings construction, and possibly during the landscaping activities. Therefore there may have been a plan from the start to use the mine spoil from the very beggining to create and manipulate existing landforms to give 'picturesque' appeal to the estate. The spoil may also have been carted off to stop the eztate's appearance from being spoiled, which was in no way unusual when a rich local laird knew 'exactly' what he wanted. This sort of activity has happened on a handful of nearby estates. I am quite excited about your description of the tunnel David. The method of construction you describe: walls of sandstone covered with sandstone pieces, suggesting a trough which was later filled over is indicitive of an 18th century level mine which is a rare thing to find in this district. From what you have described I am so sure this is what it is. Also you would not have been able to stand up straight in such a tunnel. I urge you to google 'Calderglen Mine' or 'Basket Ironstone Mine' etc... You will find a Flickr page of an old Ironstone level mine of the 18th century I had been searching for, for years in Calderglen, East Kilbride. This mine exhibits a similar description of construction.
I doubt it was a drain. Even big castles did not have drains the size of what you describe that you could crawl into, and when such much larger tunnel drains are discovered, they are described as sewers and their architecture makes their use quite clear. Any drains emerging from that house would probably have had drain outlets no wider than 2 foot x 2 foot. Of course this is my guess, but it is based upon dozens of other sites I have visited and recorded.
The overwhelming amount of annecdotal evidence on this thread, and numerous references in some books make it very clear that the Bothwell Castle site contains mines. However no records, map data, can be found which refers to them in any detail. This info, coupled with your description of the mine David strongly suggests there are old level mines of the 18th century, most likely the brainchild of the landowners of that time. For sure: anyone bold enough to rob stone from the old castle for their mansion would most likely have robbed the depths of the land to, and certainly with enough greed to do so under their own homes!
Also, if that was a drain connected with the house then it would have still been used up until recently unless for sewage, do you remember any dampness??
Due to all the evidence on this thread, it seems there are mines at the site, especially in the vicinity of the old house, related to pre 1850's mining activities.
I am still not sure that what I have seen is a mine entrance as it was a very tight squeeze as a kid to get into the tunnel and once inside it was on your hands and knees. I know that in days of old kids were sent down mines but the entrance would have made it were hard to remove any coal. Also the way it was constructed ie, slabs of sandstone I would have thought that it was constructed with a open trench and then back fill as I can not see how the slab would have been built if it was a true tunnel.
The above might contain the answer to the puzzle David.
Here are two photos from the Kilsyth area. Both structures are approx. 2ft. X 1.5ft.
The first is the melt escape channel for the ice house of Colzium house near Kilsyth which is located in the glen next to the big house. The melt was taken away by gravity to fall into the burn.
The next one is located in another ravine in Kilsyth but near the bottom, there was no adjacent ice house or mansion. I think it may be an adit to drain the workings of a nearby coal pit (Neilston, Tak-Ma-doon Road).
Both of these adits/tunnels are lined and roofed with sandstone* just like your description of the Bothwell one David and so the original diggings would have been a bit larger and may have accomodated adults to dig them out.
By the way what was the mansion at Bothwell called?
* On second thoughts more like Dolerite but thats by the by.
Like Admin said to WANLOCK, you're allowed to delete your own double-posts without leaving it to him
I never posted it twice old bean. It was only there once when I hit the post button. Tiz only now after popping that I have seen the twa'. Duplicate now deleted but take heed ye may hiv a bug on the go.
Shaky ol' finger or really a freak keyboard bounce more likely.
All posts are time-stamped as they are created and stored, so I know if they arrived at the same time. The others mentioned were odd, as they had long times between, but were then explained by a crash on the original PC, which must have stuttered just before competing the operation
Definitely no bugs in here though, as the code has remained unchanged for more than two years - and it would be happening to everybody.
(And might, just might, lead to us moving to something else, although the stability of this one when the development stopped is something to be valued as other Forums crumble and cave in under spam attacks - you'll notice we haven't suffered anything of any significance. There may be a hint there.)
To construct a drain by way of true tunnelling, rather than cut-and-cover, would require making a passage sufficiently large for men to work in. It would also permit access for maintenance.
So we should expect to find simple drains built with a cross section area much larger than strictly necessary for the purpose of drainage. The Victorians constructed many sewer systems larger than the drainage requirements of the time dictated, and such sewers are doing useful service coping with today's larger volumes of waste.
Hi, did you manage to get a look at the Flickr pics I have referenced?? Did it look anything like that David?
Well if the floor was covered in slabs as well, and it was damp then this points to a drain, which I imagine would slope up towards the house.
If the entrance to this 'drain' is larger than 2 ft x 2 ft then I will be surprised as they are usually not bigger than that on large castles, including Bothwell Castle itself!
Anyway. I don't think the depth of the drain underground should put off the idea it is a drain. I have seen old drains from country estates which emerge from UNDER 60 foot precipices at a shallow angle..... HOW on earth??!.... Who knows... but they defo did it.
I think the size of the passage would be the next big clue as to whether it is a mine or drain, but I am now leaning towards a drain of 'grand' proportions.
Did someone not say on this thread that a tunnel leads from near the same position, under the Clyde to Blantyre???
the photos that captain brittles has posted are what I can remeber seeing although it was 30 years ago and It was dark !! Calaterium, I was told that the tunnel/drain went under the Cylde but I am not sue that this is fact and seeing it might be a drain it is probaly not the case
Calaterium asked "would the same go for Scottish country houses of the 18th century???"
Probably, the size of a human was only slightly less then. Try getting up below the taps under your sink and you will see what I mean about minimum space in which to work - as opposed to simply squeeze through.
My dad used to talk about working in 18 inch seems of coal but what he meant was that the seam was 18ins. thick, his working space would have been cut out to give him more than that. One of the reasons bings can be so big is that sometimes a lot of often unstable soft material had to be removed from immediately above a coal seem in order to mine it.
Working a coal seam is different from driving a tunnel - the seam could be 100yards wide, while the tunnel might be 2'. Miners often worked lying on their side as they could then get the space to swing their pick. This was a head about 18" on a 2' shaft.
The mine owners wanted the minimum amount of waste extracted from the workings, so where possible, it was simply left behind as the face moved forwards. The material that went into bings was usually separated from saleable coal once it was on the surface, and often included low grade coal. Remember how well the bings burned once pressure and moisture did their work?
Its one thing lying on your side howking out coal from an 18ins. seam, its another thing to get the coal you've broken from the seam manouvered out behind you. The core of a bing was the waste brought to the surface as the sinkers dug it out to sink the shaft. Everything added to it after that could be a mixture blaes and other waste product that had to be brought up the shaft in order to keep the faces and roads clear.
Unfortunately, it doesn't really add anything to the story, but I did have one of those 'spooky coincidence' moments with this thread last night.
While looking at the last posting shortly after it had been made, I happened to flick the TV on to STV, which just happened to be showing the Gaelic programme 'Sruth Gu Sal'.
What caught my attention was the fact that I was looking at Bothwell Castle from the air
Turns out I had got lucky, and landed just after the start of this particular episode which flew the length of the Clyde, and was all the more interesting to watch, as it was made in 2000.
Sad to say, although both STV and the BBC list it in their schedules, neither offers it in 'Watch Again' mode online.
"It must be confessed that the foregoing details leave unsolved the great question of the nature of the relationship between the castle and the priory. Both were built about the same time, and in a position, as we have already seen, which forces the conclusion home upon us that it was chosen by deliberate design, and yet history gives us no hint of that close connexion which we should expect In any case each would be affected by the fortune of the other, alike in war and in peace. With the castle, the priory yielded to the strong tide of invasion, and in the hour of victory for the national cause the strains of triumph would float
"O'er the arched gate of Bothwell proad, While many a minstrel answered load ; When Blantyre hymned her holiest lays, And Bothwell bards flung back their praise."
p.41
"Tradition has supplied the missing link by creating an underground passage between the castie and the priory, whieh has been turned to account in the domain of fiction by Jane Porter in her "Scottish Chiefs." While this has been generally scouted, it is as well to remember that no systematic exploration has been made of the priory, and until that has been done it is as well to avoid any dogmatic statement on the subject.* Besides the tradition of the subaqueous passage, there is one to the effect that the Scottish patriot, William Wallace, once took refuge here from his pursuera EUs hiding place was suspected, the priory was surrounded on at least two of its sides and Wallace was compelled to leap from the rocky precipice on which the prioiy standa Until recent years, a hollow from which a spring issued, bearing a rude resemblance to a gigantic human foot, was pointed out as the spot where be had alighted. This legend may have some foundation in fact It is probable that the great patriot in his wanderings may have taken refrige here, and may have escaped either by means of a rope or some equally practical method."
* The fact that an old popular belief such as this counts for something has been proved at S. Andrews, where the old story of a connecting passage from the castle to the town has proved correct, and the passage has been discovered recently. But in the present latitude, apart from the difficulty of making such a passage, we would imagine that the priory and castle inhabitants would require a very powerful modern steam pump to keep the passage clear.
I don't think I have the hang of this photoposting thing. I clicked the image option and pasted the flickr link between the two brackets like described, but I can't see them.
The above image is of a remaining part of one of the Basket Ironstone Mines in Calderglen East Kilbride.
The second image is an old drain which escapes from under a steep 60 foot precipice from the former Calderwood Castle in East Kilbride. Hope it helps.
It is true that mine workings often had parts of the mine deep underground where the workers had to stoop or lie down on trollies, but this only generally happened around the seams deep underground. The main entrance into the mine was usually a large well constructed opening which would diverge, narrow and lower in height as you got closer to the seams. A good sign is subsidiary rooms leading off the main entrance tunnel which were used for storing equipment.
The ground leading up to a mine entrance is usually wide and can be termed a V-cutting, whereas drains tend to have no channel or a narrow linear one.
The grass and undergrowth is beginning to shoot up. If there is to be an investigative expedition we should go soon to get a good clear view. Navigator
With all these people clamouring to help, perhaps we should have a short meeting beforehand during the week to plan to make best use of resources, and to check were we will look, and for what? No point in us all peering down the same rabbit hole!
Afternoon or evening? Somewhere nearby? There is a fine coffee shop in the grounds of the Collegiate Church up till 4:00pm, or bar-meals-all-day in the Cricklewood Hotel.
Flickr is not an image hosting service, it is an online photo gallery.
You can use it to provide images, but have to know how to manipulate it.
I've done this below, so your images can be seen and referred to, as per you previous post.
In order to host images in a way that means the service gives you the link directly, without any faffing about, you must use a hosting service such as Photobucket, or be a bit web-savvy when it comes to manipulating file names and server locations.
(If you use the 'quote' option for this post - just above it, you can see what the required link looks like, and how it bears no resemblance to the gallery link Flick gives you.)
With all these people clamouring to help, perhaps we should have a short meeting beforehand during the week to plan to make best use of resources, and to check were we will look, and for what? No point in us all peering down the same rabbit hole!
Afternoon or evening? Somewhere nearby? There is a fine coffee shop in the grounds of the Collegiate Church up till 4:00pm, or bar-meals-all-day in the Cricklewood Hotel.
Navigator
Sorry for delay in my response Navigator and its obviously a bit late in the week now to arrange your suggestion.
An open question to interested posters on this thread: What do we know as to where to look for signs of tunnels from the old mansion house? Are there any approximate areas where signs of filled in tunnels or even signs of openings?
I think the items reported in the thread relate to two separate things (i) A tunnel or similar opening seen in living memory close to the area once occupied by the mansion, and (ii) a much older reputed tunnel from within the structure of the castle.
The castle does not change with the seasons, or much with the years. However, we have an opportunity to investigate (i) before growth obscures too much, and possibly with assistance of living witnesses who remember seeing it in the past.
I would suggest we pursue (i) as soon as practical, as we can do so without involving officialdom, while we would need to get some permissions before investigating the well interior or other aspects of the castle structure.
Hello, The problem is that I know where the drain enterance is but am 400 miles away and am not going to be up in Uddingston for may be or 3 or 4 weeks. The best person to show you the drain enterance is the son of the owner of " the Mansion", who I have already contacted as he was my school freind. Mark's father run Hurry Brothers and he is now the MD of the same company. I do not want anybody to contact him as he is a busy man but if you would like me to get in touch witn him and see if he would meet you at the castle and show you where it is then let me know and I will try to arrrange a meet with who ever want to try and find and record the drain.
Let me know what people close to the area want t do.
I also am busy, but with a few days notice could arrange to be at the Castle almost any day of the week, daytime or evening, to meet up with your contact. Once the location is established, those of us in the area can arrange suitable investigation at our leisure.
Hi all (New to the forum), Been reading your posts over the last few weeks with interest. I walk my dog regularly at the castle and I am aware of one sandstone entrance/exit to a collapsed drain/culvert/tunnel thing. My guess is that it's an old drainage culvert (there are concrete pipe section lying in the vicinity). Directions as follows.....leaving the car park walk to the left of the castle, follow the post and wire fence to where it has been knocked down. Twisty path through the Rhododendrons for about 25-30ish metres then look down the slope to your right concrete pipes and sandstone exit/entrance will be visible.
I've been down and located the structure described by Pipefish, and taken photos. [Now I need to find instructions on how to put them on site]. It is located about 1/4 way down the slope from the plateau on which the mansion sat to the river.
The type of construction is in keeping with the era of the mansion, but I'm currently at a bit of a loss as to what its purpose was. It is unlikely to be a drain outfall as there is no channel or scouring downhill where water would have flowed. Neither does it seem to be an entrance to anything - the centre of the back wall has collapsed and there is hard packed soil behind. Were that a roof-fall there would have been a cavity above, and there is none. The entrance follows a gently horizontal curve, and while there is a roof, it only projects from the back wall a couple of feet. There is no lintel in the back wall to indicate a smaller opening. The floor is about 1' deep in soft soil, different from that behind the wall. In the absence of further information I would guess that it could be a niche to hold a statue, or a feature built around a (then) natural spring. The OS does show a watercourse commencing very close to this structure.
Following the direction of the "entrance" straight back into the hill, which is in the direction of where the Boreland's house once stood, and climbing to the top there is a slight projecting mound. This contains some old un-shuttered concrete that looks about the era of building of the Borland's house. I don't think this is related to the lower structure as there are other similar lumps of unformed concrete nearby. Perhaps the builders just washed out their concrete delivery trucks over the edge of the slope. There are pieces of broken concrete pipe all the way down from the top of the slope, and odd bits of shaped masonry lying about, so it may have just been used as a coup.
The path that Pipefish described above the structure has a stone drainage channel running across it, which looks same era as out structure. There is also a 2' x 5' stone lined pit about 100' further up the path. It has been roofed with stone slab but a few are missing from one end. It is full of soft debris and I could not probe a firm base.
Whatever this structure is, it was related to the mansion and not to the era of Bothwell Castle. I think we can eliminate it from the search for the Castle/Priory Tunnel. Who fancies splitting this lot into two threads?
Navigator, Thank you for the work you have undertaken so far. Apollo,Admin, As you seem not to have a problem with up loading photos can you give Navigator some advice.
They provide instructions for uploading pics, which should be straightforward.
It just involves navigating to where the pic is stored on your computer, selecting it (or them, if there should be more than one) and then hitting the upload button.
For display on a web page, I strongly suggest you select the option that allows Photobucket to automatically resize images to 640x480 for display on a web page. This is more than adequate for Forum use, and ensures your free account will let you have thousands of pics available online. This can always be overridden for those special big pics, if needed.
I advise just trying a few to start with, without worrying about the details, BUT then work out a few album names so that you can separate and find your images easily later, when you want to refer to them again.
As far as the Forum goes, this is even easier.
Below each image in Photobucket you are given a set of links.
Either use the one they give you that has the image tags like this: [ img ] and [ /img]
Or if you prefer working with the url yourself, add them yourself, or use the image button in the toolbar just above the message editing box, the 6th icon from the right.
Give it a try, and just ask if there's a problem - but like most of these things, the explanation is almost more complicated than doing it
The above example looks like this in a post - you can use the Quote option (found in the top line of each post) to see the text of this post to see what it looks like in a real post.
Firstly a big well done for taking the trouble to go out and take the photos Navigator and for carrying out such a detailed survey of the area.
My first inclination is to lean towards the drainage/sewage disposal theory but have to admit the size of the openings are a trifle big for that. Which begs the question, what is the approx. dimensions of the opening in pic 1 and also the inner structure in pic 3 ? One other query, does the ground outside the opening fall away immediately? i.e. Did you walk in or walk down?
The floor is a bit muddy but quite level, and the distance between the wing walls and also internally in the structure is about 3" - oddly the wing walls are both curved so the 3' remains through the slight right-hand curve as you step in. The ground outside is a gentle, smooth slope with no indication of an open water channel as in an outfall. Remember the pipes are much more recent rubbish.
Further consideration of the location of the watercourse shown by the OS suggests that the "pit" is roughly where its source is shown. Perhaps our structure may have been a decorative "well" in the mansion grounds, with a steady supply of water coming from a holding tank - the thing I have called a pit. The size of the damage to the back wall would be consistent with a cast fountain head being wrenched out to flog as scrap. One of these cast bas-relief lion heads would look about right in there. The location of the actual spring does not have quite the same "dramatic" effect as where this structure has been placed.
Much to consider so concentrating for the moment on Pics 1 and 2 - the Non-tunnel tunnel.
It doesn't look like much of a lintel above the entrance does it? Could it be that the outer part has been built on to the internal bit ['Collapsed brick wall' - pic 3] which might have been the original opening/entrance/exit to protect it from debris coming down the slope above?
There does not seem to be anything behind the partially collapsed rear wall. The soil is a red clay and would have needed support for it to be a passage. It just does not look "utilitarian", more decorative.
Is this however, the passage known to the lads who played in the area?
I am not aware of the exact location, but I am sure I know the rough position from triangulating using maps & photos. It appears that the 1859 OS shows a path terminating arounf this point. Am I right? It was the norm for such winding romantic paths to end in some curiosity, which is what I think this may be. I think it was either a shady nook for an old rustic seat, or possibly a walled over spring or channelled pipe which resembled a spring etc...
As for the other pics, standard path drains for the woodland/valley setting. You have probablt seen similar work in other places.
I don't think this is what David was describing though.
Well done in taking all the time to take these pics!
I have just joined this site, which I found while looking for information about Blantyre Priory. However I had never heard of any tunnels, but I can tell a story which may be of relevance. Over 40 years ago I spent some time in Evesham, Worcestershire. Evesham used to have a large abbey, founded in the 8th century, which was destroyed at the Reformation. It was built on the banks of the River Avon. There was an ancient hotel on the other side of the river, whose name I can't now remember. In the hallway of this hotel there was a glass panel in the floor, and through this you could see a tunnel, high enough to walk through, going in the direction of the river and the Abbey beyond. The information board said that the tunnel was now blocked before the river, but its direction headed straight for the Abbey ruins. Then purpose of this tunnel was not known. I have not been back to Evesham for a long time, but tried looking for this hotel on Google Street view. It does not seem to exist as a hotel now, but I think I found the building. Strangely, I can find no reference to this tunnel on Google, but have seen it with my own eyes. Anyway, my point is that the Avon is a navigable river, much wider here than the Clyde, and probably deeper, and had a tunnel underneath it, presumably built by monks, so if the Blantyre one exists it is not without precedence. There is also a legend of a tunnel at Kilwinning Abbey, again going under a river.
Interesting thread this one.. Seemed very hot up until a couple of months ago -- has there been any more development on it? just interested as i live close to the area, and wouldnt mind a visit to the area if anyone is up for it?
Hello All, I am going to be in Uddingston on the 17th and 18th of july and will be paying a visit to both the castle and Clydeneuk if anybody in interested in join me.
Sorry mate -- just noticed that... it has doen it again.. it seems to happen if i refresh a page after it has loaded -- it reposts the item i just posted. Im using opera -- i will clear the cache etc and see if it helps
Nothing to worry about... you're not getting a good old Scottish row for it
Just a mention in passing, in case there is something obvious.
I use Opera occasionally, and must admit I find the caching and 'Back' buttons a bit odd sometimes.
I think refreshing a page just after making a post could cause the post to repeat if another page has not been visited between times. Some browser actions can be a little odd - the important thing (from my point of view that is), is that it is not global, and happening to everybopdy, so it's not a forum buig
It will stop double posts made within a few seconds of one another (usually a spam attack), but I can't extend that block to more than a few seconds.
Posts only archive and lock themselves after a week, so you can delete a double if you see it.
I am a new user and I have read with great interest on the subject of the "secret tunnel" that goes between the Castle and the priory. I would just like to add, that many years ago my Grandmother who lived not far from the area told me that her father had found the entrance to the tunnel after hearing of it from locals.
Please remember that at the time she was old and also me being about 10 at the time the story maybe that, " just a story" or that some of the detail maybe patchy. But according to her father, the actual entrance to the tunnel was actually on the opposite bank just across the Clyde but not directly into the priory and that the exit (in the Castle) was in a storm drain that was beneath a tower.
The supposed entrance according to my Grandmothers story was directly across from the south east tower ( I think) which may have led to the prison tower perhaps or maybe the Latrine. The entrance itself was supposedly cut from the red sandstone on the opposite bank but had been blocked by a massive boulder after its discovery during a siege.
I have not visited the area for many years even although I stay nearby but there is an area on the opposite bank that resembles the above description if memory serves me correct that maybe worth a look.
Hello All, I am going to be in Uddingston on the 17th and 18th of july and will be paying a visit to both the castle and Clydeneuk if anybody in interested in join me.
If this area on the opposite banks which you believe matches the description is the same place mentioned in Neil Grodon's book, then this is false. There is a natural hollow in the cliffs beyoind the northern end of Blantyre Craig by a tributary. This hollow features a large boulder fallen from the ceiling of the hollow. There is no blockage here. It will be readily apparent upon visiting. If however you mean another boulder please do post back soon!
Sorry guys -- been offline for a few weeks now -- moved house and broadband should have been on by now, but Sky as normal have made a complete mess of it and my phone -- will take another 3-4 weeks to get resolved so im having to post via my mobile broadband dongle. Any further movement on the site? the weather is good for this area just now so if anyone is still interested in a snoop around let me know.
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Tunnel between Bothwell Castle & Blantyre Priory?
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which is historically important, and was probably funded and controlled by the mansion owners. Or it could be one of those early Dukes of Hamilton run mines which were quite extensive... All very interesting.
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