Just two points about the latest version of this article.
1) Is HMS NEPTUNE an alternative name for HMNB Clyde? I don't think so; in the 1970s it was used only of the Naval establishment providing "hotel services" (acommodation, stores, personnel facilities) for the Clyde Submarine Base. Other facilities on the site (RN Polaris School, etc) on the site were not part of HMS Neptune, but of the Clyde Submarine Base.
2) Slightly different, but as it's mentioned in this article will deal with it here. Was there a submarine depot ship based at Campbeltown in the war years? Submarines based there were for training purposes, although operational boats did come in at times, certainly from Rothesay.
1. I'm afraid you'll have to take it up with the Royal Navy if you think today's use of the name of HMS Neptune for the shore facility, or stone frigate, also known as HMNB Clyde is incorrect:
Responsibility for the day-to-day management of the functions of HM Naval Base Clyde is vested in Naval Base Commander Clyde (NBC) /Deputy FOSNNI, who is also Commodore HMS Neptune and Authorisee of the Nuclear Site.
If you have a search around the web, or search the RN link given at the foot of the article, you'll find numerous references to Captain HMS Neptune and similar when the RN writes about events relating to the Clyde base, they seem to prefer to refer to HMS something-or-other when making such reports.
2. Coincidentally, according to the RN's summary of the Faslane base:
The Royal Navy has had a connection with Faslane and the Gareloch since the First World War. Indeed, the steam-driven submarine K-13 was lost off Rhu in January 1917. The Faslane site was acquired by the Ministry of War and Transport in 1940 as an alternative site on the Clyde to the heavily bombed Greenock and Port Glasgow locations. During the Second World War the Naval presence in the area intensified, and submarines operating from floating depot ships were based at the Holy Loch, Rothesay and Campbeltown.
It was the arrival of such a depot ship, HMS Adamant and the Third Submarine Squadron, that saw the beginnings of the modern Naval Base. In 1963, the UK's first nuclear powered attack submarine, HMS Dreadnought arrived in Faslane.
Unfortunately, so far, other than this, I can come up with no further online references to a depot ship at Campbeltown, so it's up to member's memories or better knowledge to pad this one out.
I have to assume the RN know they had a depot ship at Campbeltown at some point, perhaps it wasn't there very long, and has been forgotten or ignored, but it's odd that I can find references and names for craft as small as a harbour patrol vessel, but not a depot ship, which could almost be considered a fixture, and relatively noticeable.
I can confirm the submarine training aspect with HMS Osprey and HMS Nimrod being the well-known training schools already identified - shuffled up here to avoid the Luftwaffe buzzing around their natural homes down on the south coast.
I can also confirm the visits from operational submarines on patrol, and...
While it may not have been a permanent posting in the sense that the Holy Loch and Rothesay Bay were, the well-known depot ship HMS Cyclops did use the protection of of Campbeltown Loch to allow submarines to utilise its facilities:
Responsibility for the day-to-day management of the functions of HM Naval Base Clyde is vested in Naval Base Commander Clyde (NBC) /Deputy FOSNNI, who is also Commodore HMS Neptune and Authorisee of the Nuclear Site.
This paragraph indicates that the organisation of HMNB Clyde is similar to that of HMNB Devonport and HMNB Portsmouth; these are not the same as HMS DRAKE and HMS NELSON, which are part of the Naval Base, but do not apply to the whole Naval Base.
To illustrate this from Rosyth as it was at least until 1990, FOSNI (Flag Officer Scotland & Northern Ireland) at Pitreavie was the Area Flag Officer, while the Naval Base was commanded by the Port Admiral. HMS COCHRANE was the naval establishment supporting the Naval Base and had its own Commanding Officer (a Captain). HMS CALEDONIA, as a training establishment was not part of this organisational structure, but was directly responsible to Commander-in-Chief Naval Home Command. Thus NEPTUNE is not an alternative name for HMNB Clyde (or for what formerly the Clyde Submarine Base). It refers to a specific part of this Base; hence the references to Commodore HMS NEPTUNE and Captain HMS NEPTUNE. This is separate from the appointment as Naval Base Commander, although, as here, one person may hold both appointments, as well as the appointment to staff of FOSSNI (rationalisation?).
This may seem complicated or even nit-picking, but in the interest of accuracy HMS NEPTUNE needs to be distinguished from the Clyde Submarine Base, of which it is only one part.
Didn't you realise? SeSco's middle name is "nitpicker"!
Always, always, always nitpick and question anything that doesn't seem to be right - it's the only way it will be addressed, and I only wish there was more.
I freely admit that I deliberately word some content I add to attract comments where the source is unclear, especially if the original is unclear or these is no alternative source or reference cited. I have to try and attract feedback, without overtly making an error or mis-quoting material, so sometime have to add an innocent comment.
I won't point fingers and list the sources that specifically state HMS Neptune is HMNB Faslane (since they're easily found and there's no name-calling in here ). I had hoped they were right since they're higher profile than SeSco, and hadn't attracted correction or comment, but I guess not.
The problem with HMS Neptune, unlike HMS Caledonia which we know is a discrete training facility, is that it is not differentiated in any of the articles in which it is referred to, nor can it be found uniquely described within the MoD-RN web site. They don't help by tending to use the the terms apparently haphazardly and referring to Faslane/Clyde/Neptune almost (and I do emphasise the almost) as if they were all the same and interchangeable.
I've been searching for some time for something that would let me refer to HMS Neptune as a discrete installation or entity within HMNB Clyde, but keep coming up with nothing.
I've always suspected it was something separate, but in the absence of something to refer to or cite, I thwarted in my attempts to include something like "HMS Neptune, the ???, is based within HMNB Clyde, Faslane."
And I detest having something like "HMS Neptune is based at HMNB Clyde", because the first thing that comes into my mind on reading that is "Ok, so what is HMS Neptune, why is it based at HMNB Clyde, and what does it do?"
So, who knows what function HMS Neptune serves, if it's not really HMNB Clyde, but a part of it?
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Rumour
Posts: 18
HMS Neptune provides support services to the RN personnel at HMNB Clyde. It deals with accomodation, food, stores etc. HMS Nelson does the same in HMNB Portsmouth. The name just refers to the personnel support sides of the base. The RN likes to have an HMS in its bases as it looks better for a posting.
I thought I'd note down the research that goes into making a statement, just to show that most - even if they turn out to be inaccurate - are not just 'cut & pasted' without being verified from alternate sources. If not, we could just lift everything from Wikipedia, and save loads of time and effort.
Still doesn't guarantee not writing rubbish, even the best sources can be unclear. The biggest surprise is that there is no official listing of anything other than the major naval bases and air stations - anything smaller and you're on your own, and have to trawl all the articles to get to the truth.
The following was triggered by the various statements made above, about the various named establishments, which were used to track down supporting definitions from Royal Navy sources.
The italicised sections are direct quotes from the RN's own base histories and descriptions at http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/ In other words, if you don't agree, then I'm not the one to tell
(There were detailed urls for each quoted part, unfortunately a crash robbed me of them.)
----
The memory of Sir Francis Drake, Mayor of Plymouth as well as Great National hero is kept alive in the name, HMS DRAKE, which was recently extended to the whole of Devonport Naval Base.
So it seems HMS Drake was a separate entity, but is now the whole base, according to the RN.
----
2000, Integration of Naval Base with HMS Nelson.
So HMS Nelson is distinct entity within the Portsmouth base.
----
A Naval establishment has occupied the present site since 1939 when building commenced on the shore training facility for Artificer Apprentices. The previous establishment, completed in 1940, was commissioned as HMS Caledonia, the Royal Naval Artificer Training Establishment Rosyth.
The establishment operated as a single facility unit until 1977, when with the introduction of a harbour training squadron comprising HM Ships Eastbourne and Duncan it was effectively divided into two operational units... This second unit provided "hands on" experience of main propulsion machinery and an insight into the problems associated with its operation without the student having to go to sea.
In 1985 artificer training moved to HMS Sultan in Gosport and "Caledonia" became a satellite unit of the fleet accommodation centre HMS Cochrane.
On the 1st April 1996 HMS Cochrane closed and HMS Caledonia once again became an establishment in its own right, assuming its present role for support of the Royal Navy at Rosyth as the Royal Navy Support Establishment.
The continued presence in the Rosyth area of the name HMS Caledonia preserves the strong links between the Royal Navy and Fife on the East coast of Scotland. Links that go back more than 90 years and will now be maintained into the 21st Century.
So we know both Caledonia, and once Cochrane too, were distinct from the Rosyth base. Something we covered some time ago on our Rosyth page.
(As an aside, I happened to find that HMS Scotia is situated within HMS Caledonia at Rosyth).
---- The RNSMS (RN Submarine School) is the Royal Navy's Lead School for Submarine Warfare and Weapons Engineering training providing career, professional and continuation instruction at all levels for the Flotilla. We execute and coordinate this important role through training at six principle sites, namely HMS Neptune at Faslane, Submarine Escape Training Tank in Fort Blockhouse, HMS Dryad, HMS Sultan and HMS Collingwood at Portsmouth, SM2 in Devonport Naval Base and HMS Raleigh at Torpoint.
And...
Called to the Bar in July 1988, and after practice in the courts of London as a barrister, he became the Executive Assistant to the Captain HMS Neptune at the Clyde Submarine Base, Faslane.
So this suggest Neptune is "at" Faslane.
The ship is based at HMS Neptune, HMNB Clyde during the week.
Hmm... fuzzy language, maybe not so clear cut. Search for more references.
After three years being surrounded by tales of daring-do at 30,000 feet, she was re-appointed to run the London Office of the Second Sea Lord, and, to balance her time with the Fleet Air Arm, was subsequently sent north to become the Executive Officer of HMS Neptune within HM Naval Base Clyde from January 1997 to December 1998.
AH! So, unless designations have changed in the past ten years, it seems we have a clear and definite separation of the two names at last...
And finally, the eventually give us a hint as to Neptune's function...
Work is underway on Project Neptune, a £125 million rebuild of the accommodation on the Base, which will see it become the most comfortable and well-equipped military single living quarters in the UK with over 1700 single en-suite cabins for every rank from Able Rate to Admiral.
All straightforward and simple, and only a matter of a few minutes work
The Andrew ( RN ) was always famous for convoluted chains of command. I remember in Malta there was a bakery within the precincts of the Victualling Yard. The latter was a civilian run operation under a Superintendent of the Victualling Yard. The bakery was the RN Bakery and was under the command of an RN officer and had it's own MFV to deliver the bread. This must have made sense to someone at some time!
Of course, all the above discussion was a complete waste of time, and the matter could have been resolved in a moment had the mighty tome of the Sunday Herald have been consulted to begin with, and the authoritative words of a professional journalist who writes for a newspaper been taken as the fact of matter since, as we all know, those who write for newspapers write only the truth and always research their information fully and publish only rock-solid facts:
From Dounreay to Devonport, the UK's nuclear deterrent casts a shadow over the whole country, consting millions of pounds a year
Quoted Text
Here, just a short drive from Glasgow, past the mansions of Helensburgh, behind a vast expanse of razor wire, lies the beating heart of Britain's nuclear arsenal. Faslane, the Royal Navy Clyde Submarine Base - or, to give it its official designation, HMS Neptune - is where the submarines come in from ocean patrol. Yet you could drive through the whole of pine-covered Argyll without ever realising the immense destructive power housed just around the next glen and bay.
So there we have, it's been in the paper, we're all wrong, and HMS Neptune IS Faslane, the Royal Navy Clyde Submarine Base.
Torcuil Crichton, and the Sunday Herald, said so.
Strange though, that he didn't come up with the official name of HMNB Clyde - The Royal Navy must be wrong too!
Actually, the guy seems to have little awareness, as I can tell you that if you stop at certain places while you "drive through the whole of pine-covered Argyll without ever realising the immense destructive power housed just around the next glen and bay" you will realise something when you are challenged by an official car carrying security officers.
Because I'm usually hunting for unusual things, I keep a (very) low profile, but know people this has happened to, including one poor soul working hard nearby who headed for a public car park overlooking the base with his flask and sandwiches for a break, only to find himself shifted - and no questions allowed.
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Rumour
Posts: 18
The depot ship "HMS Adamant" arrived at Faslane bay in 1958 having previously been based at Rothesay with the 3rd submarine squadron. She was replaced in 1962 by "HMS Maidstone" who became the depot ship for the 3rd submarine squadron.
Faslane was officially commissioned on the 10th August 1967, with a new squadron formed shortly beforehand which became the 10th submarine squadron, based at Faslane bay, this squadron was to be the Polaris fleet. During this time various support facilities were constructed onshore to support the new squadron. "HMS Maidstone" left the base for the final time on the 23 January 1968. The formal base opening took place on the 10 May 1968. At this point the base became officially known as the "Clyde Submarine Base, HMS Neptune".
"HMS Neptune" was the name of the new depot ship, altough in this case it was shore based. It remained like this until 1st October 1996 when changed from the "Clyde Submarine Base" to "HM Naval Base Clyde". The change of name was due to FOSNI moving from Pitreavie to Faslane and the arrival of some minor warships.
The name "HMS Neptune" is still used when talking about the supply and support side of "HM Naval Base Clyde" but it isnt the name of the base, its just the supply ships name.
Just for reference the 3rd and 10th sqaudrons combined to form the First Submarine Squadron (SM1) in October 1993.
The crew of a least one of the Vanguard class nuclear subs is home for Christmas Doon the Watter - or something - and were captured as they passed sunny frosty Rossie-by-the-sea
As usual, courtesy of Zak, and if you're trying to identify the coastline and the features behind, that means the pic was taken from the Isle of Bute.
It cannot have been the same sub as it was going in the opposite diredtion i.e. out to sea but a sub went out yesterday at very high speed. It was ballasted down so that the deck was almost awash. It was going so fast that the bow wacve was covering the forward deck and washing about halfway up the conning tower. It was keeping up with the MOD plod boat at full speed which was acting as escort. There was a 360 degree light on the top of the conning tower constantly flashing the letter S in morse code.
I have seen hundreds of subs coming and going but never one at such a speed and never the flashing light.
I wonder what is going on? Has there been a problem?
The above pic seems to show the terminal at Hunterston. Can that be seen from Bute?
If you think about it, the sub above is heading south ie out to sea (my Christmas humour ignored this small fact, but would have been wasted otherwise}.
If your sub was going the other way to the one above it would have been going north, and bound for Faslane or Coulport.
No problem seeing Hunterston from the southeast shores of Bute, especially with a decent zoom on a dSLR, as a glance at the map will confirm.
Intrigued by the high speed dash and visual signal.
Offhand, I'd have thought that a nuclear sub, and in particular an armed nuclear sub, would have been limited in speed and submerged depth in waters near populated places to minimise the risk of grounding.
Granted that at the place described the channel is not really hard to find, and as we know they have access to the high accuracy military GPS signal, it still seems a touch risky - but I say that with only general knowledge of the existence of the channel, and they could have plenty of clearance to run as described with no risk of finding the sea bed inadvertently.
We know (from the BBC's Coast at least) that the channel from Bute to Faslane has only a few feet of clearance, and they have to use an appropriate tide and be piloted accurately to avoid the bottom, so running part submerged on the more northerly part of the channel just isn't possible - unless they're telling porkies.
S for Semi Submerged? I have no idea, perhaps someone else has.
I have just had a look at my Dad's 1932 Admiralty Manual of Seamanship and I see he has noted in pencil beside S what looks like Sub on Surface. Possibly used as boat was hull down and not easy to see on a rather gloomy day.
Mind you the international signal S stands for "I need a pilot" so possibly denoting the absence of a pilot on board.
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). I had hoped they were right since they're higher profile than SeSco, and hadn't attracted correction or comment, but I guess not.
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