I still can't think of any instances or reports where German scientists gave up attempts to build the bomb on the basis of humane considerations. Had any done so during the war, I'm sure they would have been placed against the nearest wall, or more likely beside a pit and shot, while the next batch of recruits to the project looked on as an incentive to concentrate on their work, and not think. Since the many were coerced by the few, the matter of belief or disbelief of the suggestion is moot.

Just a little bit of terminology, I think, and probably really runs on from the above. When I say "people" in such contexts as this where the will of individual is of no consequence, then I am referring to the master, the Reich, Nazis, whatever one wishes to call those in control. Weapons etc only become anti-civilian in the hands of the user, not the creator. Pitchfork or spear? We use thousands of tons of explosive today, blowing up quarries, but some still like to use a few kilos to modify public places. Kitchen knife or Commando fighting knife? Nuclear energy or nuclear bombs? As with the point above, you can't suppress knowledge. You may delay it, but you can't un-invent it, and suggesting scientists have their heads in the clouds is demeaning, although they have little interest in the pros and cons, but that's largely because they know that it makes no difference. They're not the bosses or the end users. Even if they found the a real Doomsday Weapon, burnt their notes and all killed themselves, unlike a Hollywood movie that would have you believe that was the end of it, they know that after a short time, someone else would be along a little later, with virtually the same idea.

Germany had neither the financial, physical, technical or human resources to produce an atomic bomb by 1945 - dare I say proven by what the Allies found when they raided all the German atomic research and development sites. The findings were that the materials - uranium, enriched uranium, plutonium, heavy water, deuterium, triggers, and just about everything else were of such poor and variable quality that the chances of enough usable material being available to produce a viable device were minuscule. As we already know from the conventional weapons programmes, for example the Me 262, their technology was sorely lacking by that time, and the country was cut off and bankrupt, so they weren't going to be able to buy in anything better. In terms of people, they had run out of their own labour, with almost anyone that could hold a gun being conscripted, and German workers reportedly outnumbered by forced or slave labour in a ratio of 1 German to 4 slaves - not the best for producing anything that needed care. Again, stressing the "At the time" aspect, Germany had purged all its thinkers at the start of the war, and many of the brightest were Jewish or non-German, so had fled the country for fear of their lives. This meant the remaining brains may have been capable, and may have produced a bomb, but there was nothing there even remotely like the Manhattan Project, which the Americans were able to fund as one of the most expensive projects in history. Germany "At the time" could match or come close, and only the Russians managed to match the Americans - or rather copy the Americans since they seemed to have as many spies as the Americans had workers.

If Hitler had not purged the country of its thinkers, bankrupted and isolated its facilities, forced its thinkers to flee, and had left someone to do the work, then I have no doubt it could have come up with a bomb, and that it would have worked, but not by or in 1945, not by the wildest stretch of the imagination.

What surprises me, and continues to do so given the Me 262 story, is that the V2 made to near completion, and worked. Looking at the innovative technology it used, in particular the guidance and control, make it a remarkable achievement. Although, that might also underline what they were good at - the V2 was conventional engineering, innovative, but conventional nonetheless. The bomb however, was physics, and that's not done with a lathe, production line, or slave.

"I still can't think of any instances or reports where German scientists gave up attempts to build the bomb on the basis of humane considerations."

Then there are still some items of written material you have yet to read.

"Had any done so during the war, I'm sure they would have been placed against the nearest wall..."

To the best of my recollection, they were written after the war.

"Since the many were coerced by the few, the matter of belief or disbelief of the suggestion is moot"

I don't understand this part.

"Weapons etc only become anti-civilian in the hands of the user, not the creator."

When a scientist is asked to develop a 12000 lb high explosive bomb that will explode on the surface with little ground penetration, with the intention of doing more surface damage in a built-up area, then this creator would have to be stupid to leave the blame all to the user. Likewise, the scientist who developed the explosive device to destroy the German Möhne dam, knew exactly what his bomb would be used for... is this creator more innocent than those who delivered the explosive device? Hmmmmm? C'mon Apollo, they have to keep their heads in a 'scientific cloud' in order to carry out their nasty jobs. There's nothing demeaning in this suggestion at all, on the contrary, and it's been a music hall joke for donkeys!

"You may delay it, but you can't un-invent it,..."

This point here is a bit beyond me.

"Germany had neither the financial, physical, technical or human resources to produce an atomic bomb by 1945"

I cannot disagree with this statement, and if I gave the impression I thought otherwise, then I did a lousy job of expressing my thoughts. What nuclear information the Allies found in Germany, or at least what we have been led to believe the Allies found in Germany, dated from the early years of the war and are comparable not with post-Manhatten knowledge, but with say, 1942 knowledge. The Nazi interest had started to dwindle by this time.

The Me 262 was, despite the very trying conditions under which it was built, tested, and used, reflects very highly indeed, on their technology. I am referring here to the developing technology, not that of the factory worker. This lack of capable factory workers reflects not at all on the level of technology used in the development stages of the aircraft.

"Germany had purged all its thinkers at the start of the war, and many of the brightest were Jewish or non-German, so had fled the country".

Yes, there had been a forced exodus of many bright people, but to say Germany had been purged of all its thinkers at the start of the war is a gross exaggeration, in fact it's untrue. The technical developments achieved and used by Germany during the war attest rather strongly to my claim that your statement is false.

"...there was nothing there even remotely like the Manhattan Project,.."

This of course is true, in fact, I'd label it commonsense true; that there was, never entered my head.

" or rather copy the Americans since they seemed to have as many spies as the Americans had workers".

Now you'd have a job with this assertion Apollo!

"Although, that might also underline what they were good at - the V2 was conventional engineering, innovative, but conventional nonetheless. The bomb however, was physics, and that's not done with a lathe, production line, or slave"

I'd label it very "far fetched" to say the VII in the early forties was conventional engineering; to suggest further, that it was simply done by means of a  "lathe, production line,  or slave labour" is an overuse of the hyperbole. I'd I'd say exactly the same thing with regard to the guided aircraft bomb and the VI.

You do have to wonder what would have happened if Karl Doenitz had got his wish regarding the Kriegsmarine.  

Essentially he knew that Raeder's plan to try and play catch up with the RN in terms of capital ship numbers was hopeless, unlike other countries, they didn't even have any older WW1 era hulls to upgrade like Britain had with the excellent Queen Elizabeth class, but all they had were two ancient Pre-Dreadnoughts.

Doenitz wished for the majority of the Kriegsmarines resources to be put into U-Boat's, also to cease production ASAP of the relatively useless Type-II Coastal U-Boat which didn't even have a deck gun and only a couple of torpedo tubes.  Increased research and development might have brought in more advanced types earlier.

Yes JadeFalcon, one might well wonder about that. If old Karl had got his wish we might all have been sieg-heiling. The time and effort spent on such German warships as the Bismark and Tripitz, I'm sure would have been much more cost effective if they had been spent on submarines. The period from mid 1941 to mid 1942 was very critical for the survival of Britain, and it was the pounding Britain was taking in the Batttle of the Atlantic. Our merchant ships were being sunk at a rate far greater than Britain could build them... and for us that was heading straight for a major disaster. A few more powerful U-Boat fleets following in the wake of their shipyard research and development,  might well have given them a victory. They didn't of course, and we eventually won.

I don't think Hitler was ever very keen on Admiral Raeder (maybe Hitler never forgave him for the bout of sea-sickness he suffered when he went to sea in one of his new warships!). Dönitz was, I believe, a favourite of Hitler's. Yet knowledge of this relationship came as such a surprise when Hitler appointed him his successor in April 1945. I have never read or heard of any person who forecast this relationship.

I suppose of all the arms of the Wehrmacht, the Kriegsmarine was the least indoctrinated with all the Nazi rubbish, and  I don't think Dönitz was of the wicked-Nazi ilk. If I recall correctly, he got  ten years at the Nuremberg War Crimes trial, and I don't think he ever deserved this. I have forgotten what it was he was found guilty of, but I have a feeling it had to do with maritime crimes which were also practiced by Allied submariners. The war cost him a lot personally, I believe he lost two sons in the German U-Boat service.

I don't think Hitler held any emnity towards Raeder, since when Raeder tried to resign Hitler tried to persuade him otherwise.  Instead of resigning, Raeder then held the honourary role of Inspector General.

From Wiki on Doenit'z trial at Nuremberg

"Following the war, Dönitz was held as a prisoner of war by the victorious Allies, who accused him of war crimes. He was indicted as a major war criminal at the Nuremberg trials on three counts: (1) conspiracy to commit crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity; (2) Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression; and (3) crimes against the laws of war. Among the war-crimes charges, he was accused of waging unrestricted submarine warfare for issuing War Order No. 154 in 1939, and another similar order after the Laconia Incident in 1942, not to rescue survivors from ships attacked by submarine. By issuing these two orders he was found guilty of causing Germany to be in breach of the Second London Naval Treaty of 1936.  However, as evidence of similar conduct by the Allies was presented at his trial, his sentence was not assessed on the grounds of this breach of international law.  Dönitz was found not guilty on count of the Indictment, but guilty on counts and  and was sentenced to ten years in prison."

If you read up on the Laconia incident, I can't blame Doenitz for issueing that order.  Namely a U-Boat was towing some lifeboats from the Laconia and also had wounded prisoners on deck.  There was a red cross on the deck marking it as basically helping seamen.  A USN aircraft still attacked the U-Boat.  Doenitz then said his crews weren't to place themselves in such a position again.

Interesting JadeFalcon. I wonder how many of the Allied nations would have been found innocent of  "conspiracy to commit crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity"? Not any if my memory serves me.

Yes, the Laconia affair was a sad conclusion to a genuine attempt to save lives. Strange, that to this day the crew of this American aircraft has never been discovered, well it has never been made public anyway. Thinking about this brings to mind the great loss of life when the Bismark went down with so many Allied ships available to rescue the German sailors...... Yes, I know, there were German submarines reported in the neighbourhood.

Excuse brevity, just flitting through, but the American aircraft, crew, and personnel involved in the Laconia incident were identified, and escaped prosecution, while Donitz was. A little case of selective myopia?

http://www.uboataces.com/battle-laconia.shtml

The next morning, September 16, at 11.25am, this concentration of U-boats was spotted by an American B-24 Liberator bomber operating out of Ascension island. The survivors waved and the U-boats signaled for help. As Red Cross flags were draped over their decks, the pilot Lieutenant James D. Harden turned away and radioed back to base for instructions. The officer on duty that day Captain Robert C. Richardson III replied with the order to attack.

Half an hour later, Harden flew back and the survivors felt a sigh of relief on seeing the returning aircraft. They had expected a drop of supplies, of the much needed food and medicine. Instead, they were attacked with a concentration of bombs and depth charges. One bomb landed amidst a lifeboat and hundreds perished during that attack. U-156 was slightly damaged and forced to submerge, leaving hundreds of victims struggling in the water. All the submarines dived and escaped, although U-506 and U-507 returned to the area later, unwilling to desert the people they had saved. Fortunately, Vichy French warships from Dakar arrived the next day and picked up the remaining survivors, so the loss of life from the American action was contained. In total, there were about 1,621 deaths with 1,111 survivors, including those already taken aboard the overcrowded U-boats. This incident left a foul bitterness in the U-boat war that would cast a long shadow over Donitz and his seamen.

The action of Captain Richardson was considered by many as a war crime, although no formal charges were ever placed. As a result of this incident, Admiral Donitz issued an order forbidding U-boats from attempting any rescues and furthermore, from providing any assistance whatsoever to survivors of submarine attacks. He was quoted to say “no attempt of any kind must be made to rescue the crews of ships sunk”. This order became to be known as the “Laconia Order”. Up until now, it was common for U-boats to aid survivors of their attack by providing provisions and pointing out the direction closest to land. Despite the order, some U-boat commanders continued in their practice to aid survivors of their attacks.

After the war, Donitz stood trial for war crimes and the Laconia order was used as a basis of indictment against him. Most surprisingly, he received support from some of the most respected figures in the US Navy, Admital Chester Nimitz who came to his defense and said that the United States had operated under the same engagements of unrestricted warfare. Despite the evidence of allied practice, Donitz was convicted of war crimes by the Nuremberg Tribunal and sentenced to 11 and a half years in prison. The U-boat crews deeply resented this action and felt that they were being prosecuted for the threat they had posed to the allies rather than for war crimes.

Lieutenant James D. Harden turned away and radioed back to base for instructions. The officer on duty that day Captain Robert C. Richardson III replied with the order to attack.

Great stuff Apollo, I enjoyed reading your articale about the Laconia very much. I'd always thought the Yankee crew had remained unknown. I think this fellow Richardson should have been tried as a war criminal. And, since the pilot of the plane turned back after spotting the U-Boats, he must have recognized the situation for what it was. He too, should have been tried as a war criminal. Obeying orders wasn't generally accepted as an excuse at Nuremberg.

Wonder if Harden received a gong for his actions... like the caprtain of the ship which shot down the Iranian airliner full of civilian pilgrims.

I really don't know why Doenitz was tried as such.  I know the 'obeying orders' doesn't cut it, but for the most part, the Kriegsmarine fought a relatively clean war.

I've often heard the Nuremberg trials are really considered a bit of a travesty, and while some people like Julius Streicher for instance deserved what they got, others like Field Marshall's Jodl and Keitel I'm not so sure of.  I also read Eugene Birds book on Rudolf Hess in Spandau, and while it dragged a bit in places it was a rather fascinating read.

A question, it mentions in that book as well as elsewhere that Raeder and Doenitz just didn't get on with each other, any reason why?

JadeFalcon said:
"I don't think Hitler held any emnity towards Raeder, since when Raeder tried to resign Hitler tried to persuade him otherwise.  Instead of resigning, Raeder then held the honourary role of Inspector General."

William Shirers' "Rise & Fall..." (page 1292), informs us that "Hitler had become furious with Raeder". This was because of Raeder's failure to prevent the Allied convoys getting through to Russia in 1942/43. Hitler and Raeder had a "stormy showdown" on Jan 6th, 1943, and H. accused R. of "a lack of will to fight". Raeder asked to be relieved and Hitler accepted his resignation, and replaced him with Karl Dönitz.

According to Shirer, Raeder received a life sentence at Nuremberg.

Sorry, but I'm not very good at the micro-analysis reply so this takes me ages...

Then there are still some items of written material you have yet to read. - To the best of my recollection, they were written after the war.

I was hoping for a reference, but if they were written after the war, then do they really matter?

"(Since the many were coerced by the few, the matter of belief or disbelief of the suggestion is moot)" I don't understand this part.

What's not to understand about the elite few of the SS and Gestapo organised under Hitler's top table, herding the mass of German population, and the countries he conquered, with the ultimate power of life and death they could wield arbitrarily?

Coincidentally, today I listened to the story of a Jewish artist running an art class in Germany in the 1930s. His newest pupil arrived in full uniform, armed, and the class was over - for ever.

"(Weapons etc only become anti-civilian in the hands of the user, not the creator)." the scientist who developed the explosive device to destroy the German Möhne dam, knew exactly what his bomb would be used for...

Honestly, this is a subject all on its own, and is finely crafted in semantics. I could point out that when the Möhne dam-busting bomb was designed, the motivation was to destroy the dam and halt or disrupt arms production and save Allied lives. As opposed to smash the dam and kill as many civilians below Möhne dam as possible. I don't think we can do a subject such as this justice here, but agree that is complex - and ultimately needs courts and lawyers to resolve.

"(You may delay it, but you can't un-invent it,...)"  This point here is a bit beyond me.

C',mon Duguld In plain English, one may have the bright idea of assassinating Einstein, Oppenheimer, Von Braun, Baird, Barnes-Wallis etc etc and destroying their work as part of a cunning plan to win the war, and the idealist might believe that in doing so they would also stop the atomic bomb, ballistic missile, television, radar, or whatever. The point was simply that while this action may delay the arrival of the invention, if we look at the example of the invention of television given above, and the various pioneers involved, then the result is simply delay, not un-invention by removing the inventor. Another one will be along in a moment, as it were. (Delay may still be pivotal).

Turning briefly to the Me 262, the only new technology was the engine, Messerschmitt has already mastered the aluminium mononcoque airframe in the 1930s with the Me 109. Their technical development on the new jet engine was so poor that the first engines fitted failed immediately under flight conditions, despite extensive pre-flight bench tests, and there was a delay of more than a year after that first failure while they were totally redesigned. Stems from no people and no resources.

"(Germany had purged all its thinkers at the start of the war, and many of the brightest were Jewish or non-German, so had fled the country)". Yes, there had been a forced exodus of many bright people, but to say Germany had been purged of all its thinkers at the start of the war is a gross exaggeration, in fact it's untrue. The technical developments achieved and used by Germany during the war attest rather strongly to my claim that your statement is false.

Indeed, as they had very few thinkers left by the start of the war, I was actually referring back to the real beginning, 1933:

Germany was now led by a self-educated, high school drop-out named Adolf Hitler, who was by nature strongly anti-intellectual. For Hitler, the reawakening of the long-dormant Germanic spirit, with its racial and militaristic qualities, was far more important than any traditional notions of learning.

Before Hitler, German university towns had been counted among the world's great centers of scientific innovation and literary scholarship. Under Hitler, Germany's intellectual vitality quickly began to diminish. Truth, rational thinking and objective knowledge, the foundation stones of Western civilization, were denounced by Nazified students and professors in favor of mysticism, speculation and collective thinking toward a common goal - the pursuit of a glorious future for Germany.

This page summarises what I had in mind here The Burning of Books. I can't quote the whole thing here, but it shows where most of the brains gone from Germany by the start of the war.

More later

"Sorry, but I'm not very good at the micro-analysis reply"

I'm not too sure why you said this Apollo, but anyway, just let me explain that when writing  a long post I have trouble keeping track of what I have written and what I haven't written, and the "step approach" helps me stay on course. I thought also, that it helped the reader to follow what has been written, but hearing it described as 'micro-analysis' leaves me wondering.

"I was hoping for a reference, but if they were written after the war, then do they really matter?"

Yes, I am aware of the weakness in claims unsubstantiated by names, titles, etc.; nevertheless, I know I did read that German nuclear scientist(s) claimed they gave up further pursuit of the "bomb" for  humane considerations. (And I reiterate: I believe the German claim is just rubbish.)

Now Apollo, in answer to your question,  

"do they [the German claims] really matter?"

Well they do in the context of why my statement was made in the first place: it could well have been a post-war ploy by the scientist(s) to show the Germans were not all of what the concentration camps perhaps led some people to believe.

We might also note that all scientists were not happy about the results of the Manhattan Project. Niels Bohr for example, wanted to tell the Soviet Union all the Allies knew about nuclear weapons in order to minimise the chances of nuclear war. There was, for a long time after the use of the 'bomb', pretty strong agitation against the development of nuclear weapons...indeed there is, even today.

"Coincidentally, today I listened to the story of a Jewish artist running an art class in Germany in the 1930s. His newest pupil arrived in full uniform, armed, and the class was over - for ever."

I really don't see what the persecution of the Jews in Germany has to do with the subject under discussion.

"I could point out that when the Möhne dam-busting bomb was designed, the motivation was to destroy the dam and halt or disrupt arms production and save Allied lives."

This, I'm perfectly happy to accept as an absolute fact, and point out once again, that those who developed the explosive device to destroy the German Möhne dam, knew exactly that this is what the device would be used for. One may dress the above outlined motivation in all the prose one wishes, but the statement "Weapons etc only become anti-civilian in the hands of the user, not the creator." is patently incorrect: the 'user' in the Lancaster was no more guilty than the scientist.

"(You may delay it, but you can't un-invent it,...)" This point here is a bit beyond me.

I now understand the plain English explanation... sorry 'bout that.

"Turning briefly to the Me 262,"

The failures mentioned in the development of the Me 262 are not uncommon in the development of aircraft. The British Meteor for example, starting from Whittle's development of the engine went through many problems before it ever went into production. I have recently read about Jan Zurakowski's test flights with the Gloster Meteor, and his eventual separation from the company because of technical problems. And of course who can forget de Haviland. Nah, Germany is not the only nation to experience trouble with new aircraft. To state Germany had purged all its thinkers at the start of the war is not true, and I still believe the development of the world's first operational jet, the Me 262, offers a fair measure of support for my assertion.

"Before Hitler, German university towns had been counted among the world's great centers of scientific innovation and literary scholarship...."

I have no wish to be put into a position of seeming to defend Hitler or Nazi Germany, nor do I wish to read about the burning of books; and, a discussion of the German persecution of the Jews is also a bit beyond my interest.

You have to be less selective - my recollection of the Jewish artist had nothing to do with Jewish persecution. The fact of the story was the SS soldier (or whatever he may have been) arriving and using his arbitrary power to shut down an art class he saw as contrary to his doctrine.

"the 'user' in the Lancaster was no more guilty than the scientist."

Er, those in the Lancaster are not 'users' - Britain and its Governement, acting on behalf of its people are the 'users' in this context.

There seems to be a misapprehension that I'm slating the German effort in developing the Me 262 - quite the opposite, and I still have part 2 of the story to paraphrase soon. I used it as an example intended to show that they were still able to develop with the minimal capability they were left with and had to build on, but the fact that they barely developed one variant proves my point. At the same time, the Gloster Meteor was being developed, meeting and tackling similar problems, and following multiple variants, including a vertical take-off model that liked to melt runways - so nobody's perfect. It was also initially forbidden to fly to Germany, lest it be downed and captured, so was deployed against the V1 rather than in combat. There was another tiny problem when it did fly there, as "we" would try and shoot it down since it looked line a 262.

"The Burning of Books" is the title of the article referred to, and contains much more. And the persecution of Jews, or rather German Jews in this case, led to most of Germany's brains being eliminated, or chased from the country long before the war.

That's two counts of Jewish persecution dismissed - is there something I should be avoiding?

Oh, sorry about the "micro-analysis", but us webby types (which I'm told I am, so better not fight it ) interpret quoted points as specific details to be analysed alone - a bit like typing ALL IN CAPS is a like SHOUTING! Now I know better, I'll wind myself back down into waffle mode, and stay less focussed and more generalised

Read the rest at last:

Me 262 - Part 2. based on Stuart R Morrison's account.

Continuing my little tribute to the brilliant, but fatally flawed, world's first jet fighter which despite its deficiencies, showed the piston engined fighter to be dead - imagine if there had been enough brains left in Germany to develop it earlier. In spring 1943, German Ace General Adolf Galland flew a prototype, returning from the first flight to say, "It's as if an angel were pushing".

Earlier, I mentioned a problem that led to fatal crashes throughout the life of the 262, and wrongly mentioned the fuel supply as the problem - having read the detail, it was actually the engine air supply. Without the resources to track this problem to source, the Germans never solved this problem. After the war, the Americans ordered Ludwig Hofman (famous pilot) to ferry a 262, and during this flight an engine cut. Although he restarted, he could not recover the dive but, having been at high altitude, had been able to force his way out of the cockpit before the aircraft powered into the ground. His account revealed that a body inside the jet-tube - intended to optimise efficiency - could fail, and be shot to the back of the tube and close it off. This created excess drag, hence the sideslip and dive, and blocked the airflow to the tailplane, which meant no control and explained why the condition could not be recovered.

Demonstrating the prototype to Göring in spring 1943 proved to be a mistake. He arranged for it to be shown to Hitler in November 1943, at Intersburg Air Base in East Prussia. Also impressed, but obsessed with thoughts of retaliation foe Allied bombing, he asked if it could carry a 1,000 kg bomb - to which Messerschmitt was obliged to answer "Yes".

In May 1944, Hitler issued an order for the 262 to used as a high speed bomber. The result was the effective loss of the 262 for 1944, as it was pressed into an role for which it was not suited. Development and flight testing consumed valuable time that could have been better spent, as the aircraft's limitations meant its range for such missions was a mere 60 miles from its operating base.

At the same time, operational units were still being formed. Erprobungkskommando 262 trained pilots and developed operational tactics, downing two Mosquitos and a Lighting during exercises. Disbanded when its leader was killed action, Ekdo 262 reformed as Kommando Nowotny, under Luftwaffe ace Major Walther Nowotny, with the specific mission of intercepting US daylight bombers. Despite the advanced nature of its equipment, lack of resources meant it was less than successful. On its second day of operation, Hauptmann Alfred Teumer (leader of the second Staffen) was killed when his aircraft crashed due to engine failure while landing. There were continued losses, and Nowotny succumbed to the dive problem, being seen to plunge through cloud cover and into the ground at over 500 mph. Pilots were simply untrained, some making only two flights before being sent into action. Although Kommando accounted for 22 Allied aircraft (plus 4 probable), the cost was 26 Me 262s and pilots.

Two thirds of 262 crashes were attributed to mechanical failure (quite apart from the training failures). The engine design was never sorted, leading to a 26,000 foot ceiling to minimise the risk of flame-out and compressor stall. The tailplane structure was liable to fail, and the undercarriage to collapse on landing, due to the high speed.

By spring 1945, the golden opportunity offered by the 262 had been lost, and even its advances could not combat Allied mastery of the air. Some 1,500 had been built in the last months of the was, including the radar equipped night fighter - a spectacular achievement given the daily bombing raids which interrupted production - but the increasing accuracy of the Allied bombers meant the factories were always sustaining damage.

Fritz Wendel summed things up by saying, "It was born too late". However, it was not so much the late birth as the German leadership's inability to make a timely and correct assessment of the 262's potential which led to the Luftwaffe being denied its last chance of countering the Allies' massive air superiority.

Jagdverband 44 served a brief but distinguished career, and had some 95 262s at Munich, operating from a runway created on a concreted centre section of the Munich/Augsburg Autobahn. JV44 proved the efficacy of the R4M unguided 5 cm air-to-air missile, launched at a distance of 650 yards (outside the range of bombers' defensive machine guns), an attack formation of nine 262s each armed with 24 missiles could quickly fill an area the size of a football pitch with shrapnel.

JV44 transferred to Salzburg-Maxlam, and surrendered to American forces on May 3, 1945.

I read over the most recent part of your Me 262 report Apollo. It is of course very interesting, but I wonder about this fellow Stuart R Morrison. I tried to find out something about him, but all I could come up with was with regard to one Stuart R Morrison, becoming an executive for an insurance company and I gave up my search. Anyway I wonder what his reason for saying,

"... imagine if there had been enough brains left in Germany to develop it earlier!"

What is Morrison's point in saying that? Good heavens, with respect to every country involved in the war we could say, "... imagine if there had been enough brains left to develop a jet aircraft earlier!"!  It is a nonsensical statement.

Stuart R Morrison informs us further that:

"Two thirds of [Me]262 crashes were attributed to mechanical failure (quite apart from the training failures)."

To what I wonder,  was the remaining one-third of the crashes attributed? Could it perhaps have been sabotage rather than mechanical and technical failures? In fact, what role did sabotage play in some of the other two thirds of the Me 262 crashes? I don't know, and I don't suppose we'll ever know for certain, but I do know sabotage was a problem. There was no shortage of people with good reasons to sabotage the Me 262. For example, there is likely to have been forced labour used in any factory the Me 262 was being built. Part of the REIMAHG article which I quoted earlier tells us something about the forced labour there, as follows:

"Forced Labour in the  REIMAHG

Until April 1945, all in all, 12000 forced labourers from 13 Nations slaved away, mostly  Belgians , French, Russians, Poles, Dutch, Ukranians, and Italians. They lived in 28 separate hut-camps under unimaginable conditions. Sanitary conditions and the aupply of food were catastrophic. The SS calculated the life expectancy of the forced labourers to be 7 to 8 months. Not many survived the REIMAHG. "

With a life expectancy of only 7 to 8 months, what incentive was there not to sabotage! I'd guess sabotage, rather than technical and engineering inadequacies, played a major role in many of the teething problems suffered by the Me 262.