"Hitler's interference in projects such as the Me 262 jet were genuine reprieves for "us", and I just noted a documentary that described the 262's effect on bomber fleets as "devastating", up to 100 knots faster than anything else, and speed in the air in war is king. Fortunately, the jet didn't take to the air until the last days of the war, when the Luftwaffe was all but grounded as the Allies had turned off the fuel taps, and they only flew when they absolutely had to"

Further to Apollo's comment above, I thought the following might be of interest. I am not the author; I paraphrased it from an article in an aircraft magazine.

The story of the Me262-Production in the Reimahg.

In the spring of 1944 the aircraft factory in Walpersberg [mountain in Thüringen] was an accomplished fact. The alias, or the Code Name , was "Salmon".  Their official title was "RHEIMAHG",  which stood for: "REIchsMArschall Hermann Göring–Werke".

The Thüringer Gauleiter, Sauckel, had submitted the suggestion (a factory inside the mountain) to Göring, to extend, through Gustloff-Stiftung, the existing tunnel systems of the porcellain workings in the Walpersberg mountain near Kahla, for the production of aircraft or their parts. Göring supported the plan and ordered Sauckel to build the factory. With that, both of them knowingly by-passed the heirarchy of the Fighter Command Staff, of which, Hitler's Architekt Albert Speer, had become the leader.

In the meantime, it had become clear to the leadership they could not win back the Luftwaffe's dominance in the air equipped with the Focke Wulf Fw 190, All hopes rested on the Messerschmitt Me 262, the first jet fighter in the world ready to go into production. It outclassed  enemy fighter aircraft in speed and firepower, and was supposed to lead to a turning point in the air war.

The first take-off of a Messerschmitt in the REIMAHG followed on the 21st Feb.1945 at 13:15 hrs. The destination was Bay #13 at the Zerbst Airport, a military airport between Dessau and Magdeburg. Here, four 30mm canons, MK 108, were installed in the aircraft. According to existing records, at the start the production of the Me 262's ran according to plan. Four planes altogether were delivered in February, ten more planes in March, and twenty were supposed to be delivered in April. Up to December 1945, the monthly production was supposed to gradually run up to 750 Me 252's per month.

Up to the abandonment of production at the beginning of April, twenty-five aircraft were, for the most part, assembled out of delivered Messerschmitt parts, and said to have been finished. The last aircraft, work's number 110154, flown by Oberfeldwebel Gerhard Mittelstädt (currently living in Toronto), took off on April 8th 1945 at 16:15 hrs for Zerbst.

750 per month...wow! Yes, as Apollo says, it sure was fortunate the jet didn't take to the air until the last days of the war.

Deluded fantasy!

Oh, I'm referring to anyone over there seriously believing that 750 Me 262s could be produced on a monthly basis - NOT Dugald's account. Looks like a fine example of the propaganda machine in full swing. By that time, I think the Allies had all but strangled every supply line into the German war machine, and the country. What a number if they could have done it though.

I have some documentation which is probably not in general circulation, and will dig out some quotes.

Written by a chap called Stewart R Morrison, an air gunner on the Liberators of No 215 Squadron based in Calcutta and Dubulia.

The Allies had at least three encounters with the Me 263 before one of their pilots lived to describe its performance. He was Flight Lieutenant AE Walls who, on 25 July 1944, was on a photo recce mission from RAF Benson to the Munich/Stuttgart area. At 29,000 feet near Munich his Observer Flying Officer Lobban reported a strange twin-engined aircraft about 400 yards astern, Wall pushed forward the throttles of his 390 mph Mosquito but was shocked to find that the the enemy machine was still closing rapidly. Five times he took evasive action before finally losing his attacker in cloud 16,000 feet above the Tyrol.

In passing, it is interesting to note that two days after Wall and Lobban had their brush with an Me 262 of Erprobungskommando 262, No 616 Squadron at Manston received operational clearance to employ its Gloster Meteor Mk 1 fighters on 'Diver' sorties against the V-1 Flying Bombs.

The project for the aircraft, designated P1065, dates back to June 7, 1939, when the proposal was sent to the Reichluftfahrtminiterium - the State Aviation Ministry - in Berlin. Two BMW turbojet engines were specified, and the projected maximum speed was 560 mph. At this time, Professor Wily Messerschmitt had already spent some 18 months on the the project.

Delays due to redesign and engine changes meant the aircraft grew from 30 to 41 feet in wingspan, and was to be fitted with rocket engines like the Me 163 rocket fighter, but these engines were also delayed.

The aircraft first flew on April 18, 1941, powered by a Junkers Jumo 210G 12 cylinder 1,200 hp engine. Test pilot Flugkapitan Fritz Wendel later reported the aircraft was at least as good as a 109, better in some aspects - and this was in its configuration from the drawing board, with no modification being needed after the first test flight.

On March 25, 1942, the turbojets were fitted and the first flight was carried out with both these and the piston engine in use - no chances were being taken with aircraft or pilot. This made the aircraft heavy, and was at its maximum permitted weight, making take-off difficult and requiring the entire runway. Almost immediately, at 165 feet, the port engine cut, followed by the starboard engine. Only the piston engine prevented disaster with such a heavily loaded aircraft, and Wendel landed as soon as he could. Turbine blades in both engines had failed, a surprise for the engineers as the engines had been subject to extensive testing, and there was a further delay as the engines were completely redesigned.

On July 18, 1943, the team moved to a new airfield for the first purely jet-powered tests. A problem with the location of the tailplane almost ended the test flight before it began. Its position and angle meant it was stalled in the air from the fuselage and jet exhaust. Rather than abort, they came up with the idea of braking the aircraft at take-off speed - this would cause the it to nose forward and lift the tail out of the stall and into clean air - and could also cause a crash or make them run out of runway due to the speed reduction when braking. Wendel decided to risk the option, and at 08:40 made the first fully jet-powered flight of the Me 262 - 12 minutes. He repeated the exercise at 12:05.

As you might gather from the dates, the project was not being pushed along with any urgency. The picture is slightly misleading though, and while there was considerable interest, there were simply too many other projects being undertaken at the same time.

The Me-262 was also beset with engine problems, the fan blades had a short operational life before they became useless.  Also, the 262 was initially to be designed as a bomber due to some asinine plan.  Not to mention, the Germans had fuel problems, and finding plentiful fuel for these aircraft wasn't exactly easy.

I don't usually go for Wikipedia quotes on the basis the content is an indirecrt summary, but in this case, that's what I'm looking for:

Several components of the Me 262 were built in forced labour camps. The most noteworthy of these top-secret plants was B8 Bergkristall-Esche II at St. Georgen/Gusen, Austria, where inmates of Concentration Camp Gusen II produced fully equipped fuselages for the Me 262 at a monthly rate of 450 units on large assembly lines from early 1945. In the end, slightly over 1,400 Me 262s of all versions were produced. As few as 200 Me 262s made it to combat units due to fuel shortages, pilot shortages, and the lack of airfields that could support the Me 262 (concrete runways were recommended as the jet engines would melt tar runways).

The accounts of the prototypes in Wikipedia differ slightly from the much older account I have access to. Significantly, it numbers them from V1 to V4, while I have them registered as V0 top V3 (no relation to the V-weapons I'd add). I've only read the early part so far, for the previous post, and still have the later sections to read, and might past the salient points and dates once I have - it's much heavier reading that the first part, even though it's about the same length. Might even slip in a pic or two too.

Engine life was around 50 hours, but in reality only 12 hours was achieved - probably due to mis-management by the pilots, as experienced flyers coaxed around 20 hours from them. Throttle setting were critical and differed for high and low speed operation - and rapid changes could kill and engine. Later designs eased this problem through the use of autothrottle devices. Changeout was supposed to be three hours, but nine was realistic as the crews weren't trained or experienced, and... the parts weren't well enough made to fit first time (sabotage? ). Flight time was somewhere between 60 and 90 minutes, so there must have been a degree of crossed finger after that 13th flight was made.

There was a seldom documented design fault in the early engines, undiscovered until one pilot escaped the death that usually resulted, and was able to report the circumstances. The aircraft suffered a number of unexplained fatal crashes, and the report allowed a small part to be identified as the cause. Intended to help fuel fuel, it was found that certain conditions caused it to be displaced, permanently blocking the fuel and preventing any possibility of an engine restart in flight.

The 262 wasn't designed as bomber to begin with (where did that story come from? ). I have come across claims that the design started life as a fighter/bomber, but never found anything that backed them up, such as the P1065 original spec mentioned above, which is well documented. It was definitely a fighter from the outset, though the "started as fighter/bomber" claims suggest much of the delay in its final arrival arose from Der Führer's insistence (again, a favourite point of dispute/discussion) that it should be adapted for use as a bomber when he was shown the fighter (and who was going to say "No"? ), although the other delays in the project render this point moot, and it did operate as a fighter/bomber. Slung underneath the fuselage, the bomb load would have undoubtedly have limited the aircraft's capability.

The problem I mentioned (above) regarding take-off, requiring pilot to brake and tip the nose down to lift the tail out of the dirty airflow arose from the tail-dragger design adopted in the prototype, and was cured in later developments by fitting a tricycle undercarriage with nosewheel - so the aircraft was level - and eliminated when the final, fully retractable undercarriage was fitted in production.

Following Apollo's "Deluded fantasy!" comment, I took it upon myself to write to the author of the article about the REIMAHG inside-the-mountain aircraft factory. I asked the author if these expected production figures were really correct, or were they the result perhaps of a typo or something.. The following is his reply:

"Clearly, and I will gladly answer this question. According to the records of research scientists, who were engaged/employed with the REIMAHG,  there were supposed to be 750 aircraft, as of December 1945, actually delivered per month . Would that actually have been possible? I also don't believe it; the number sounds too unlikely. Even if the details of the logistics had worked correctly, it [the 750/month] is still very doubtful. The condition in which the factory found itself however, in addition, rendered it incapable [of this production]. The aircraft, which were finished, all made use of separate parts delivered from Messerschmitt... the REIMAHG was still incapable of producing some of the parts for the aircraft. [ At the end of the war] all the caverns inside the mountain were still under construction. "

It seems therefore, that Apollo's "deluded fantasy", is indeed an apt description of the REIMAHG's expected aircraft production... intended no doubt to help with the Propoganda Ministry's keep-your-chin-up campaign.

I might mention that the REIMAHG too, like those mentioned by Apollo in a subsequent post, was a forced labour camp.

Thanks for the extra detail Duguld.

I've no doubt the suggestion that the production figure of 750 aircraft per month was nothing more that rhetoric, sourced as you say from propaganda, a desire to placate Hitler (and avoid being stood against a wall with a free blindfold), or even a number that arose from Hitler himself, and which no-one was prepared to suggest wasn't possible, lest they win a blindfold.

I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to track down the peak U-Boat production numbers for comparison, as these were produced at a prodigious rate early in the war, when Germany had plenty of resources, to take part in the Battle of the Atlantic, and to cut of Britain's supply lines with America. While the production rates were given in a recent documentary, I can't recall the detail, so there's little point in me guessing the numbers as they could be daily or weekly. I do recall though that in terms of rate, the Germans were, at one stage, producing U-Boats faster then the Allies could destroy them - and this was when they were getting good at it and were doing so quite effectively, and it was thought that the battle with them might be lost. Fortunately they got even better at fighting them, and Germany couldn't keep up production to match. I can see that the Type VII was the workhorse, and became the most produce submarine, with over 700 examples built.

Going back to production figures, I just noticed that the V1 was intended to be despatched to Britain at the rate of 500 per day.

In total, only some 4,000 were sent - over 1,100 were destroyed by RAF flyers, while the American proximity fused anti-aircraft shell assisted by radar controlled guns were latterly eliminated as the passed over the British coast, with well over 90% being dealt with there. However, the early success of the weapon still saw 2,400 arrive in London.

Their toll was still less than it might have been, as the British had turned the German agents planted with the intent of feeding back targeting data of V1 strikes, and false information was transmitted back to Germany, causing the weapon to be wrongly configured, and be set to fall short of its intended target. While this still resulted in strikes, it prevented the Germans discovering the subterfuge, and adopting countermeasures to restore the landing points of their weapons to their intended targets.

Numerically, the more complex and advanced V2 was intended to be despatched at a rate of 50 per day from the factory under the concrete cupola, disabled but not destroyed by RAF bombing raids.

V2 was 20 times more expensive than V1, but still only carried 1 ton of explosive.

The secret A10 could have reached America.

While their ability to carry a nuclear weapon was questionable (and there wasn't actually one to deliver) it seems that the expense of these systems was vested in something more sinister than the simple delivery of a relatively small amount of explosive (1 ton was less than the largest bombs, British bombers carried 5 ton bombs), and the likelihood is that the they could have been loaded with nuclear material, spreading it over a large area, contaminating the land and people, eliminated them and diverting resources. Then there's the chemical and biological aspect of a small warhead with a big effect.

I have an old newspaper clipping that describes the V4, which was to have been packed with radioactive wast and targeted on London - the effect of only one such weapon would have been to produce the same level of radiation in London as the Hiroshima bomb. The same article suggests there was evidence that the the Hiroshima bomb was dropped to prevent the Japanese completing work on the V4.

The information was released by British nuclear expert Philip Henshall, who says he saw secret German papers which were confiscated by the Allies at the end of the war.

This dates back to 1995 - I wonder if it was ever followed up, or if any more details appeared? Or if it has been forgotten?

There's a lot of stuff here that i think belongs in the "Deluded fantasy" chapter Apollo. Can't prove it of course but it seems to include areas the Nazis were never really into at all. I'm referring of course to the nuclear material. I don't think there was any fear of them building a bomb before the Allies. much of what has been written by the German scientists who worked on nuclear stuff was bent on showing the Germans as being afraid of the international consquences of the damage nuclear bombs coud do to the earth, and this humane consideration was the  reason they gave up their search for the bomb...I don't know.

I don't know about the number of U-Boats either, but what i do recall at the end of the war, is how surprised i was after VE-Day regarding the number of German subs that were dropping into Scottish lochs to surrender. There seemed to be hundreds! Loch Eribol away up in the north seemed to be the busiest.


(?)  

The final number of U-Boats was surprisingly small, to my mind anyway, but I suppose their losses in the Atlantic, once the Allies had perfected their anti-submarine warfare techniques must have accounted for many. Bear in mind the production figure of 700 given for the Type VII alone, the final number of between 115 and 154 (dependent ons source) is tiny once you think of adding the production figure for all the other U-Boat types. The total for the whole of World War II was about 1,160 - again sources vary. And, it seems there were another 135 laid down, but never completed, which would have made the total almost 1,330.

I don't know if you've found it, but we've summarised the results of the recent survey carried out on the site of Operation Deadlight, which saw the last U-Boat scuttled to the west of Scotland and north of Ireland.

I can't quite see the Nazis or Hitler as being the types to have given any thought to humane consideration and given up the search for the atomic bomb on that basis - weren't the the same people hell bent on genocide and the elimination of the Jews in gas chambers and death camps? I think they managed to dispose of around 6,000,000 or so before they were stopped, and got the chance to start on the next lot they didn't like the look of.

The German bomb was stopped by Allied intervention, the Germans had all the bits necessary to make the most basic device, even though it is now clear that they were technically deficient in their methods and techniques of production, that would have been overcome in time - which they fortunately were not given. Given the right materials, and atomic (fission) bomb is relatively easy to produce, unlike its cousin, the nuclear (fusion) bomb is a completely different animal. The first didn't even need to be tested to prove the concept, but the second was quite different in terms of technical requirements, and that's why there was so much testing carried out by the Americans in the early days. That the V weapon development gave them the delivery system, just waiting for the payload is no great leap of imagination, and we only have to look at the Americans and Soviets a few years later, as the space programmes covered the development of the ballistic missile programmes inside the Cold War.

I'm afraid I've simply never heard anyone say or even hint that the Nazis or German scientist had any fear of the consequences of the bomb, part of the problem was that their early purges had emptied the country of many of its best scientist and thinkers - just look at the names of those involved in the Manhattan Project, and where many of them came from. In many respects, it's a good job the Third Reich was being run by what amounted to a madman with power, had he cultivated his available resources instead of persecuting them, things could have been very different today.

I tthought the "heavy water" plant in Norway had something to do with the development of nuclear weapons.

The SOE raid on the Vermork power station in Telemark has become a legend, and I hesitate to mention it as it has become legend and quoted so often.

What is less well known as a result is that this was only one of a series of raids and attacks made on the station to disrupt its operation, and the production of heavy water. Some of these actions were successful, while other were almost as spectacular disasters, and led to the loss of many involved.

The final blow to the German bomb was the sinking of the ferry transporting the last supply of heavy water from the station, across Lake Tinnsjø. This sinking sent all the tankers to the bottom of the lake, and is notable that it was authorised after consideration of the effect of sinking a ferry carrying civilians, and a number of Norwegians lost their lives when the ferry sank.

The use of heavy water rather then graphite as moderator for their reactors underlines the German lack of expertise I mentioned above, and even the heavy water they were manufacturing was of dubious quality for the job, and was typical of the whole project - all conceived without the necessary people or skills to see it through to completion on anything like the necessary timetable. Compared to the Manhattan Project, one of the largest scientific endeavours of all time, the German project was considerably underfunded and understaffed, and it is questionable whether Germany would have had the resources or concentrated research attention which the Allies used to produce such a weapon.

I might add, that when writing these accounts, I make a conscious effort to try and use terms such as Reich, Nazi, and German to distinguish between acts carried out by by the Reich, and perhaps the same acts when carried out by the German people, who were subject to life in a Totalitarian society, and obeyed or died as any enemy of the State would have. Whether or not I always get it right is another matter, but I like to think I try.

I don't think the V4 (or whatever of the other names it had) is one to join the "deluded fantasy" camp, as there have been significant facts coming to light in the postwar years that tie in with the German's lack of ability in the field of atomic physics, and the option of using outside assistance - again, whether or not this would have had any practical application in the time-scale concerned, given that the rest of the world was in what amounted to a headlong rush towards the same goal regardless of cost, is one for continued debate. In the end, it didn't matter.

Here's a couple of examples - the first one is the serious one, just in case it's not obvious

U-234

General notes on this boat:

U-234 suffered bomb damage while under construction in 1942. After the loss of U-233 in July 1944 it was decided not to use U-234 as a mine-laying boat. She was then rebuilt as a Japan-transporter. On 25 March 1945 they left Kiel and a few days later reached Kristiansand, Norway.

On 16 April, 1945 she left Norway and was enroute to Japan with extremely important cargo (drawings, a Me-262 jet fighter in crates and 560kg of uranium oxide, several high ranking German experts on various technologies and 2 Japanese officers) when Kptlt. Fehler, after hearing the cease-fire orders on May 4, 1945, decided to head for the USA and surrender.

Per tradition the Japanese men took their own life via sleeping pills rather than being captured.

Next, some interesting reading, not for the "facts" it claims to reports, but the skilful means by which the writer seamlessly blends a few facts with the results of whatever it he drinks, smokes, sniffs, or stick in his arm:

Reich of the Black Sun - Nazi Secret Weapons & The Cold War Allied Legend

It's prefaced with:

As a teenager I became fascinated with the history of World War Two, and particularly the European theater and the race for the atomic bomb. Physics was also an interest for me, and another oddity lodged in my mind as I read the standard histories: the United States had never tested the uranium bomb it dropped on Hiroshima.

If that's representative of Joseph P. Farrell Tulsa, Oklahoma's knowledge of (atomic) physics, then his writings should come with a warning to strap up your funny bone while reading the rest - it will need the support. For anyone not up to speed with their atomic physics, the Hiroshima bomb wasn't tested because there was no need to - it operated on basic atomic theory, and didn't use any complex or advanced physics packages that needed to be proven before use.

While the reaction is not atomic, the first bomb needed testing as much as a mixture of vinegar and bicarb would, in order to be sure it would froth up. Although it seems I should be referring to Polo mints being stuffed into bottles of fizzy drink nowadays, which seems to have the same effect, although I don't have these lying around to give it a try.

One of you will have to let me know  

I don't know about polo mints and fizzy drinks but I do know that if you give a bottle or can of fizzy drink a hard rap before opening it, it will not fizz over the top.  I have no idea why this works but I am sure I am about to find out.

Not from me, I've never had the opportunity to try it (cans = premium pricing), but I'll hazard a guess and suggest that the CO2 comes out of solution if the can is left to stand, hence makes a bid for freedom when it is opened, as all the gas bubbles, held tiny under the pressure of the sealed can, are released when the can is opened to atmosphere.

The sharp rap tends to break/burst them, making them much smaller than they already are, and they dissolve back into the liquid.

Don't quote that though, unless you take the time to go find the real answer - this one's just for fun

Dugald wrote:

"...much of what has been written by the German scientists who worked on nuclear stuff was bent on showing the Germans as being afraid of the international consequences of the damage nuclear bombs could do to the earth, and this humane consideration was the reason they gave up their search for the bomb"

Yes, of course the claim by German scientists  that they gave up attempts to build the "bomb" because of humane considerations is just rubbish and was never taken seriously by anyone, including the Germans. But this claim was made by the German scientists involved in the Nazi nuclear programme. I hope what I wrote above didn't give anyone the impression that I subscribed to this belief.

"...weren't the same people hell bent on genocide and the elimination of the Jews in gas chambers and death camps?"

No, I don't think so. I don't think the German scientists who worked on the development of nuclear material played any part of the "... genocide and the elimination of the Jews" you mention here Apollo. I think they were just scientists like those who worked on the other "Wunderwaffen", like the VI and the VII, scientists no different I'd guess, from the British scientists for example, who designed Britain's anti-civilian weapons. They went around with their heads in a scientific cloud and gave not a twit for the pros and cons of what they did, only the scientific success of it.

"...it is questionable whether Germany would have had the resources or concentrated research attention which the Allies used to produce such a weapon".

I'm not too sure what the meaning of this is. Certainly during the latter part of the war they lacked the resources required for building a "bomb"; I am assuming  "resources" refers to hardware as opposed to human resources. However in the realm of "would have had", if the "concentrated research attention" means they lacked the human resources, then I disagree. I believe the German scientists could have duplicated the human resources and brains, used on the  Manhattan Project to develop the "bomb". And, by the way, in the same realm of "would have had", so could Britain. The Americans have/had no monopoly on scientific brains and capability. One need only take a look at the weapons the Germans developed during the war and to which they devoted "concentrated research attention"... weapons not matched by the Allies.