The Old OS Maps page lists some old, original, paper OS maps (there's a surprise) that we have.

I've added a list of each with the scale and year to identify them, and plotted the area that each paper map cover on our Google map to show the coverage.

As you'll see, they date from prewar in some cases, to the 1950s, making some of the content valid back to around 1900. The prewar maps were a real pain to plot as they aren't aligned to the National Grid, so had to have the corners aligned by eye. Not actually too hard where there is an aerial view - it's amazing how much of the ground has retained boundary and field markings. Much more difficult to identify were points where the map corners landed in areas where there are now streets, since anything that might have been matched to the original feature has gone.

Although you can't see the original maps, just the area they cover, there is one particularly interesting one, and that the one that includes Bishopton. This map predates ROF Bishopton, and there is not a scrap of the place to be seen, just field and roads, and none of them correspond to anything on the present day site.

I've not intention of spending hours scanning or digitising these maps, but might grab the ROF section from the relevant map and add that for comparison. I should really be up to creating it as an add-on for Google Earth or some sort of overlay, but can never be bothered to see how that's done.

Also, if anyone has a specific area of interest that one of the maps cover, I'd be happy to provide a scanned section.

Interesting spot you chose for the sample, well known to both of us I think.

I was almost contemplating a wander there, but the weather wasn't so hot today, and I got diverted anyway.

Intriguing to see the mill was sited there, and the weir in existence. In the riverbank, there are still the remains of a small control gate, just where the weir ends and the mill begins.

The area is also in hi-res Bird's Eye view, so you can now explore along the road to the east, along to the ruins of the buildings at the edge of the M74 without wondering who you might meet.

Just east of the weir is the old rail bridge across the river. You can see the fence that bars access from the north, but you can't see that holes have been cut in it, so you can get on the bridge. It is an exercise to keep the adrenalin flowing just a little bit more than usual. While you're weight it probably not going to cause this derelict bridge to collapse, it has never been maintained since it was abandoned, and it is just a little unnerving to wander across it and look at the Clyde hurrying along underneath the holes in the span. Go through the deck and no-one will know you're not there any more - until someone from the Glasgow Humane Society drags your lifeless corpse from the waters after a couple of days see-sawing once you reach tidal waters. Sharpens the foot placement somewhat.

The south end looks like a sheer drop, but it's actually and easy hop down the side back on to firm ground.

I did get round to reducing the Renfrewshire map with the view of Bishopton in the days before the munitions factory engulfed the area, and its on the OS Maps page as a thumbnail.

I must have missed something Captain as I find digital TV to be great - more channels, great picture and sound and no signal drop out when the Rothesay ferries cross the firth.

Agreed, we need an explanation.

Digital television is not something than the word con can be applied to, unless the term is to be applied to terrestrial television.

It provides the same services that terrestrial provides (or provided, since it is a dying technology), and supplements these with additional television and radio/music services.

There is no additional charge for these services, or they are provided from the usual sad source of advertising revenue.

The quality is way over what the old analogue system could ever provide, unless you lived under the transmitter.

The system is far from complete or in place, with another four years before it reaches that milestone, so neither its coverage or content can be considered complete at the moment.

There is also a degree of mis-selling and mis-representation being carried out, but this has nothing to do with the digital television service, system, or people involved with it, but is being carried out by the usual scum out to con the elderly and uninformed, charge then for equipment and upgrades they don't need, and sell them receivers and televisions to replace their obsolete sets - kit that would be fine, but for the fact that these conmen tell them otherwise.

The only problem I've seen is that someone's nose was put out of joint when a contract for managing the digital switchover in an area was awarded to Sky, and someone decided that they shouldn't have got the job because they would make all the people buy Sky subscriptions - which they demonstrably didn't (I won't go into detail - there's too much).

How about FreeSat, for free delivery of digital telly frm the sky where the ground based signal can't be provided. That was never ever going to happen for folk in the back of beyond who currently have to depend on creaky analogue repeaters that spend most of their life failing in remote places with no service engineers handy.

The Fox, I'm sure, will confirm that there are many areas along the Clyde coast that barely managed three, let along five analgue channels, and there are many that have never even seen Channel 5 (and that's come to be a bad thing in recent years years, given the decline in the others and the rise in 5's content).

It all depends where you live mate!  Without digital satellite TV I would be looking at evrything through a snow storm and that is when reception is not interfered with by passing shipping.  Not to mention reflected signals when the tide drops!

HDTV is available from Freesat at present a restricted service but ITV and Ch 4 are expected to join soon.  There are no monthly payments on this service.

I am not sure about that Captain.  The high tide on the Cart certainly goes past Linwood and nearly up to Johnstone.

I don't think that's right, and the effect would be very noticeable - witness the tidal bore or tidal wave so famous in some areas, which races inland against the flow of the river, and can be extremely high at its peak.

The weir on the Green has raised the water level behind it, and it is now at a level greater than the tide would raise it to. Remove the wier and the level would fall to its natural height, and then rise and fall with the tide.

As the water races inland, the natural tendency for a river is to narrow and become shallower. This tends to cause the tidal height inland to be higher than expected as the volume of water that was being accommodated in the wider and deeper mouth of the river is driven inland with the incoming tide.

Every river is different of course, but I would be wary of where I stood if they took the weir away and it was the first time the tide came in

I was looking at the Bird's Eye view of the boatyard along at Dalmarnock again, and think it looks even odder that there are boats there, as the road access looks pretty poor, and the weirs appear to make river access dodgy too. Maybe they are dropped in by large Russian helicopters

Looks like there's a visitor that might be bumping their nose against something unexpected if they got as far as any of the weirs, although I suspect the fresh water would keep them away if nothing else.

A dolphin or porpoise reported wandering around the Clyde today, as far up as the SECC.

My sympathies to the mammal's taste and smell organs, if the Clyde on Sunday morning contains the usual waste bodily materials deposited across the banks and off the bridges on Friday and Saturday nights by revellers, neds and winos. A wonder the report is not of the sighting of it on its back with its flippers in the air.

You've started something now.

I wonder if there are any old records that could be dredged (sorry) up relating to the Clyde before the weir or weirs were put in place?

I know there's a lot of Victorian maritime data kicking about, but everything I've come across so far has been concerned with the firth, and steamer operation (Clyde Navigation), so the further reaches would be of no real interest to them.

Pity Tom Weir's not still about, the upriver Clyde and the trail towards its source seemed to be one of his pet subjects, and he'd probably have been able to point at good sources of info.

At the end of the day they must have some way of getting the boats away from the boatyard and it probably involves water or the yard would have downsized completly years ago.

Having had a look at the yard earlier, it's clear there's no direct or simple road route. At a guess, that's probably due to later development encroaching on the surrounding area - there was probably an easy route there in "Ye Olde Days".

The correct answer to accessing the yard is probably the easiest and most obvious one...

There are numerous other slipways along the the river, some large and some small, many of which are only a few yards from the road, so that's how the boats can be got in and out of the river between the weirs.

A hunt using the aerial imagery probably won't show them though, unless you know where to look, simply because most of the river has trees lining its banks.

I can't pinpoint any, but Glasgow Green definitely has slips, as witnessed by the boating clubs that have clubhouses there, and there are others to be found in less well known spots. I remember being somewhere just upriver of the weir (killing time when attending court) and found one in the trees in the north riverbank below some big houses. I remember thinking it was ideal for the local neds as it was at the end of a road and they could have driven down the side street, crashed through the wrought iron fence, and shot straight into the Clyde down the slip and never been heard of again.

Remember the first weir of 1851 to 1889 had a lock, so allowed craft to pass upriver past the Green, possibly as far as factories in Carmyle.

I'm missing something in the reference to OS mapping of 1858. If the weir was in place to prevent tidal effects reaching upriver past it after 1851, then why does the publication of a map in 1860 lead to the tide being able to surge over the Glasgow Green weir for it to reach as far as Carmyle?

I have another dumb question, more modern... Do you know how they got the water from the Carmyle weir to the power station? I've been down there a few times, and theres's nothing to give a clue, but I do appreciate that there's been a lot of work done there to erase the station.

On a "loss" viewpoint, the road at the station itself used to have those period concrete lamposts which will be gone now. A pity, I liked them with the cement showing the crushed stone content, and the old "flying saucer" shaped plate reflectors at the top, with their big lightbulbs.

"twiz for boats" Eh? That's what I said (or meant) "so allowed craft to pass upriver past the Green"

What do you call a lock that lets the tide through - useless

Sorry, that one assaulted me after "When is a door not a door?" - "When it's ajar."

Oh dear... sorry again - so old it's got a wheelchair.

I think Clydesmill was mothballed and out of service long before I found it. Certainly, on reflection, the site was dead from whenever I started to wander past the Westburn Works for a look at it, but I didn't realise that then, and just assumed it was reserve. I never saw it for some years, then was passing down the road to Cambuslang and near fell off the road when I looked over and all that was left was the chimney, literally standing on its own, and due for demolition in a few days, although I didn't know that at the time, and was too late to get any pics before it was obliterated.

The lamposts I'm referring to never saw a vapour lamp in their lives, that's one of the reasons I like them for their cuteness, they'd only be about 10 feet tall or so. These took nothing more elaborate than a big, honest, glass lightbulb, maybe even just an ordinary bayonet (or screw, to stop folk pinching them) cap type that you might have had at home years ago. The local neds just smashed the, the posts that is, not the bulbs, as they may have been concrete, but a fairly large hammer and time (or even just half bricks) soon ruined them.

At the very highest tides I would expect the GG wier to be overrun, in fact I would not be surprised if most high tides overran it slightly.  The earlier one with the lock gate which would probably only be usable at high tide is quite logical and would have allowed access to Carmyle.  Although it is not mentioned on the linked page is it possible that one of the sections of the present one are liftable or collapsible?

Maybe the only solution is for a "local" to visit the boatyard and simply ask?

The construction pics of the current weir rule out "liftable or collapsible" (it is adjustable though), besides, you need a lock to allow craft to move past such a barrier. A weir is nothing more than a dam that's allowed to overflow. If you simply remove or open the weir, then ALL the water from the high side will want to drain unchecked. Your boat will be swept away - unless it's maybe a 3,000 hp MTB

The story about the dolphin looks as if it is not quite the interesting news item it might have been, and has a more depressing side.

The dolphin is being described as less than healthy and somewhat disoriented.

Attempt to herd the mammal out to sea have been unsuccessful, and the story could be heading for a sad end if it can't be persuaded to leave the Clyde, with physically shifting the creature effectively ruled out as the stress could finish it off anyway.

I guess you were wrong about the lack of cooling towers at Clydesmill!

I guess this station provided power for the steelworks (1955 pic apparently)...

Clyde's Mill, opened 1916 by the Clyde Valley Electrical Power Co. Closed 1978 by South of Scotland Electricity Board. Largest size 332.5 MW. Demolished. Also a separate gas turbine was installed in 1965 and seems to have been treated as a separate station being closed after the main station and demolished c. 2002.

I'm afraid my knowledge and commnets/questions were about the gas turbine station - I didn't even know about its predecessor

It makes sense though. As you may have gathered, I have something more than a passing knowledge of things electrical, and I was always puzzled by the extent of the remains of the distribution network that can still be seen in current aerial images of the area to the east of the Clydesmill station site. There was just too much, and it was too awkwardly positioned to be logical. Now I can see that the gear belonged to the earlier station, and things are no longer the puzzle they once were.

Incidentally, Clyde's Mill was named because it was the site of a mill owned by Mr Clyde - now that's what I call a coinicidence, not the contrived connections 'smart' writers try to come up with nowadays.

http://www.edwardboyle.com/EB/cambuslang/Clydesmillpowerstation.jpg

http://www.edwardboyle.com/EB/cambuslang/Clyde.jpg

http://www.edwardboyle.com/EB/cambuslang/Cam7.JPG

Modern detail found:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh189/cellcell_photos/Clydesmill2008e.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh189/cellcell_photos/Clydesmill2008g.jpg

And, I'd completely forgotten about this little story about the turbine station, that I had ferreted away some time ago:

http://www.btinternet.com/~j_d_mcarthur/clyde.html

I've just given the urls of the images, since I don't know the owner and don't want to upset them, but the pics are very valid in relation to what we have raised in here.

Post what you like, past hints are only aimed at trying to avoid upsetting someone by careless posting that makes their stuff look as if its being passed off as 'the posters'.

The outlets would have been for each of the plants that can be seen in the pic, so that each could operate independently. Looks like four smaller plants to the left, and two biggies to the right. I can only assume that the cooling capacity of the water was consumed in full by the smaller plants, leaving nothing for the larger installation on the right, hence the cooling towers.

I've taken the name and story about Clyde's Mill (provided as two words) on good faith of course, as it comes as part of the history of the power station. I'd like to give more detail, but don't have it, so the date and location, and lifetime of Mr Clyde is something I can't add.

Regarding the weir and lock, it may be worth remembering that we're only talking about tidal water levels, not canal locks designed to raise and lower craft over great heights. Any lock on the Clyde (and bear in mind also that we're talking normal tides, not floods), would only have provided a few feet of reliable clearance, so we're not going to get anything with an appreciable draft, or carrying any sort of load through it. I'm guessing it wasn't very large either, so would suggest we're talking about things like rowing boats passing through it, and not anything of any significance.

I can't see any point in having the lock or banking higher, since unlike a canal lock, this lock can only fill to whatever maximum height the river is at any time - a canal lock has the next highest lock, or the top of line source to give it the head of water it needs to operate. If the lock and immediate banking were higher, they still wouldn't stop the river at high tide, as it would simply burst its banks a few feet further downstream, and carry on regardless - unless I'm picking up the idea wrongly.

I think the potential puzzle of the lock and weir disappears if we think of nothing much bigger than rowing boats passing along there, which I think makes sense as the local of the time would surely have used the river then in the same way as we use the road now, and the roads then wouldn't have been as handy as they are now - and would have needed a horse and cart too. The rowing boat only needed a man or two, or a boy.

I think you may be overcomplicating the "lock".  All that would be required was a gate or other removeable section in the weir which could be opened at high tide to allow boats through.  It would only be at high tide that there would have  been enough depth of water below the weir for use commercially.  The removeable section would have been prevented from opening at other times by the pressure of the water above the weir.

This is basically the system used in commercial docks like the James Watt which was only accessible to shipping when the caisson was removed at high tide.

This still does not solve the boatyard question.

Not at all

You've echoed the point I was making, but it would still have to have two gates to earn itself the name of a lock.

A single gate would only be of use when the water on both sides was at the same height, otherwise the pressure would either hold it in place (unless I'm wrong abut the purpose of the weir, it will always be higher upriver, being topped up continuously by the river and its tributaries), or render the weir useless if it was left open, allowing the tidal flow to pass unchecked.

Dry docks are a different case, being open to allow vessels to enter, at which point the gates can be easily closed as there is not pressure difference, then pumped dry, locking the gates, which can then only be opened later when the dock has been flooded and the water levels once again equalised and removed the pressure difference, allowing the gates to open freely once again.

I came across a mention of James Watt: "In 1769 James Watt, examining the declivity of the river's bed from the Broomielaw Quay to Dumbreck Ford, found the low-water depth to be 14 inches at Hirst Ford, and at Dumbreck Ford 2 feet."

No precise location, but I found this too: "There are references in Inverness Library to a McGruer building a wooden warship for a French nobleman in the year 1296 and by the late 1800s Ewing and Gruer McGruer had established a boat business at Rutherglen near Glasgow."

Doesn't say how they sail there, but Glasgow Council have got in on the act:  Adopted City Plan : 01 August 2003 : Adopted City Plan : 01 August 2003 : City Plan - Part 1 - Development Strategy - River http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Business/City+Plan/Part+1+-+Development+Strategy/River/Context/
"9.3 Although the use of the River has declined, a limited number of important users and functions remain. Govan is now the upper limit for commercial cargo operations on the River, with King George V Dock the principal focus for activity. The shipyards downstream of Govan access the water for launches and mooring while the PS Waverley sails upstream as far as its mooring at Anderston Quay. Yorkhill basin, just upstream of the Kelvin, is currently used for visiting naval and other vessels and the tall ship, the SV Glenlee, is berthed at Yorkhill Quay. The Euroyachts (Largs) boatyard at Windmillcroft Quay, operates unrestricted by the available water depth and occasional small craft sail upstream to the boatyard at Rutherglen."

Again, infuriatingly with no useful details, the discovery of an old police boat in a Rutherglen boatyard http://groups.msn.com/clydesteamers/policeboats5.msnw

I'm beginning to thing the Rutherglen boatyard began life as a boat builders yard, and therefore did not need the access we are puzzling over today, as (larger) products could be built in sections, and then floated downriver for assembly at a larger shipyard. Changes to the river, ie things like weirs, dredging etc have changed things since then, making it look odd now, but perfectly logical when it was first established - Rutherglen being a fairly major place of industry, it would have had the necessary people an resources nearby.

Before you think I've taken leave of my senses, and developed a vivid imagination, I do have the evidence to back this up now, thanks to T B Seath & Co, Rutherglen

Thomas B Seath of Rutherglen dates back to at least 1856, and I see at least 240 craft credited to the yard.

Again, no great detail about the yard, but if you search the ClydeSite Clyde Ships Database you'll get the idea.

Unless, there was another one somewhere else!

I think the purpose of the two weirs was different.  The Carmyle weir was designed to supply fresh water to the power station and would therefore have been high enough to preclude salt contaminated tidal water from getting into the system.

The GG weir was designed to maintain a reasonably even level of water above it but it could be regularly topped by high tides.  The speed of the water and rate of flow either side of high tides is very low and would pose no danger to banks etc..

The James Watt dock is not a dry dock, it is a wet dock and used to maintain a constant water level by only opening the caisson at high tides.   This makes loading and unloading ships easier and mooring safer - the warps do not need constant attention as the water level rises and falls.

See, you can learn something useful here every day - it never occurred to me that JWD had a wet dock. My past correspondence regarding JWD has always been with regard to service and maintenance of Clyde ferries, and a wet dock would be little use for that.

My closest "hands-on" experience was in the now defunct Govan docks, but they never let is near them, and we were always herded to the jetty where the ships we would be working were berthed.

However, dry or wet, the docks don't really tell us anything about weirs, or locks, which operate quite differently.

Reading the Captain's history lesson, the Carmyle weir predates the power station, and there's no reason to segregate fresh water for cooling duties in a power station, sea water does the job just as well, and would make little difference to the materials used. Fresh water gear would probably be more expensive, since pumping gear at this level of engineering would be built to be corrosion resistant anyway - who want to have to replace parts on such a large scale? There would be two separate water circuits, and the external cooling water would circulate in heat exchangers that had no fluid connection with the working of the station, only heat would pass across the interface, so dirty, or even salty, cooling water never gets anywhere near the workings.

Having worked on similar installations elsewhere on the Clyde, it's probably fair to say the the Carmyle weir had no relevance to the power station. Projects on this scale use massive centrifugal pumps driven by electric motors to draw the water they need from the rive and and pump it to the point of use (and that might be miles away, obviously not at Clyde's Mill though), unlike the old mill, which would have needed some head of water to provide the motive force to get the water into the mill buidlings.

The speed is of a river is changed once a weir is added, a weir is just a specific case of dam design, and the upriver section will slow down. This is because the weir/dam raises the water level behind it, which increases the cross-sectional area of the river - it has no option but to slow down since it's mass flow-rate is effectively constant. This has the effect of reducing bank erosion, but also means the river begins to drop the material it would otherwise carry downriver, so silting can become a problem

Some good thoughts there - and some good links Apollo. Here is the Glasgow Green weir taken from the first O.S. plan, you'll see the banking I was talking about. I was bandying the idea that the lock gates rose above the normal high tide levels and so the bank between the lock and the weir was likewise built high so that spring high tides didn't overflow them and cause damage.





image courtesy of the Trustees of the National Library of Scotland

Great detail, and shows that we have a genuine two gate lock as well.

I'd have to say that the banking is only provided to allow the lock to be constructed and used though, not as any sort of overflow related option.

To operate the lock, people have to be able to walk around the raised area and swing the gates open and closes, and operate the valves. It makes sense to make sure this is built high enough to to keep the operators out of the water.

As I noted earlier, having the lock gear built high keeps it out of the water, but if the tide is high enough to breach the weir, the water will simply flow around or past the lock, and break through elsewhere, where the bank is not as high as the built up lock, and that could be only a couple of feet along from the lock itself, or the opposite bank of the river.

It's interesting to note the direction of the gates, as this shows the designers considered the maximum pressure to be coming from the seaward side. The gates point into the highest incident pressure so that they are held closed naturally. On simple rivers and canals, this is normally into the flow of the water supply.

(Best thread we've had in ages - I'm on the edge of my seat and enjoying all the details that are coming up )

Ah, I think I've been reading the hint at protection as too all-encompassing, and your meaning is protection of the lock and its immediate surrounding if I read your more detailed description correctly, and yes, that would be a most sensible choice. You wouldn't want to be building or repairing the lock every time there was a bit of a swell.

If I read the scale at the bottom correctly, that's 100 and 200 feet shown.

A quick fiddle on the screen shows the lock to be 27 feet wide, and 75 feet long.

Tidal charts from the time would be needed to determine the probable depth, as the depth and width of the river have been engineered somewhat since those days, so modern figures don't mean much, or would have to be fiddled about and values assumed otherwise.

I was looking up some lock designs, and the culverts (which I am assuming to be depicted on the map by the slightly widened section to the west) are on the wrong gates compared to the diagrams. These allows the lock to be flooded, and are usually shown around the gate pointing upriver, into the water supply.

I know it's making an assumption about something shown in very little detail, but it echoes the first oddity I noticed as what I would have taken to be the upriver gate is pointing seaward. I doubt the mapmakers got such a detail wrong and wonder if there was a reason, if it was a mistake, or the nature of the installation made this apparent departure from the norm "a good idea"?

I am puzzled by the gate alignment too as they should open against the main flow as when closed it is the pressure of the water on the high side of the lock that keeps the gates shut and sealed.  This is standard canal operation practice.

Afraid the stated scale is no use unless you're looking at a life-size 1:1 copy of the map, and the scan/pic/screen variables render it meaningless. The only thing we can do with the image is assume the scale line shows 100 foot steps (and the tenths, or 10 foot steps to the left).

The Rutherglen boatyard build vessels much much bigger than the lock, but they were built in sections, then floated downstream for assembly at other, larger, Clyde yards.

(Maybe we're using the same words differently. I'll waffle a bit more.)
Both lock gates are shown pointing from west to east on the map above, depicting the lock. This means the gates can only swing to the east to open.The normal direction for lock gates is given as pointing into the flow of the water supply. I'm guessing this makes them "fail-safe" in so far as the upriver side will have a higher water level than the downriver side, which means the gates are held shut by the imposed water pressure. Manual intervention is needed to open them.

I'm just wondering why they would depict the opposite on the lock on the Clyde. The upriver level will (normally) always be above the level on the downriver side of the weir.

The only thing that occurs to me is that the idea is that the lock can be used to bypass and relieve the weir, by just leaving the gates open. When the tide is dominant, simply pushing the gates shut will lead to the tidal water pressure holding them closed with no further action needed, and the gates would then open themselves when the tide reversed and the river became dominant again.

Oh well. There you are... answered my own question again

Yup. Ok.

I see the problem after a nap, now I have to work out why!

And why it wasn't obvious before.