I wonder if there are any old records that could be dredged (sorry) up relating to the Clyde before the weir or weirs were put in place?
I know there's a lot of Victorian maritime data kicking about, but everything I've come across so far has been concerned with the firth, and steamer operation (Clyde Navigation), so the further reaches would be of no real interest to them.
Pity Tom Weir's not still about, the upriver Clyde and the trail towards its source seemed to be one of his pet subjects, and he'd probably have been able to point at good sources of info.
At the end of the day they must have some way of getting the boats away from the boatyard and it probably involves water or the yard would have downsized completly years ago.
Having had a look at the yard earlier, it's clear there's no direct or simple road route. At a guess, that's probably due to later development encroaching on the surrounding area - there was probably an easy route there in "Ye Olde Days".
The correct answer to accessing the yard is probably the easiest and most obvious one...
There are numerous other slipways along the the river, some large and some small, many of which are only a few yards from the road, so that's how the boats can be got in and out of the river between the weirs.
A hunt using the aerial imagery probably won't show them though, unless you know where to look, simply because most of the river has trees lining its banks.
I can't pinpoint any, but Glasgow Green definitely has slips, as witnessed by the boating clubs that have clubhouses there, and there are others to be found in less well known spots. I remember being somewhere just upriver of the weir (killing time when attending court) and found one in the trees in the north riverbank below some big houses. I remember thinking it was ideal for the local neds as it was at the end of a road and they could have driven down the side street, crashed through the wrought iron fence, and shot straight into the Clyde down the slip and never been heard of again.
This [previously quoted on the Dalmarnock thread] describes the first weir as being in situ from 1851 to 1880 - well the first O.S. plan above was surveyed in 1858, pub. 1860 so the tide must have been able to surge over the Glasgow Green weir for it to reach as far as Carmyle.
The other LINK describes the current weir's function to be; [quote]
"The weir's purpose is to stabilise the upstream banking, by maintaining a fixed water level, creating a deep wide channel of water through the Green."
I'd think a stable banking was required because of a need to build high density housing [Gorbals, Hutchison etc.] very close to the river but the deep wide channel bit is difficult to understand considering no shipping would require such but maybe the author of this piece wasn't local ..........
Remember the first weir of 1851 to 1889 had a lock, so allowed craft to pass upriver past the Green, possibly as far as factories in Carmyle.
I'm missing something in the reference to OS mapping of 1858. If the weir was in place to prevent tidal effects reaching upriver past it after 1851, then why does the publication of a map in 1860 lead to the tide being able to surge over the Glasgow Green weir for it to reach as far as Carmyle?
I have another dumb question, more modern... Do you know how they got the water from the Carmyle weir to the power station? I've been down there a few times, and theres's nothing to give a clue, but I do appreciate that there's been a lot of work done there to erase the station.
On a "loss" viewpoint, the road at the station itself used to have those period concrete lamposts which will be gone now. A pity, I liked them with the cement showing the crushed stone content, and the old "flying saucer" shaped plate reflectors at the top, with their big lightbulbs.
The lock wasn't for the tide to pass through ........ twiz for boats It all depends on how high this lock at the Green was, if it was only a rudimentary affair of a few feet it is feasible that the high spring tides might well have been able to rise above it - and the weir and flood up river far as Carmyle.
I have another dumb question, more modern... Do you know how they got the water from the Carmyle weir to the power station? I've been down there a few times, and theres's nothing to give a clue, but I do appreciate that there's been a lot of work done there to erase the station.
There was a mill race/lade whatever you want call it, a canal that took water from the level of the Clyde above the weir along the southern bank to provide the power station with its cooling needs and then discharged it a bit warmer a bit further downstream. Earthworks/environmental engineering have obliterated any trace of it. I remember it when Clydesmill was operational.
The lamposts you refer to probably had low pressure 125W mercury vapour lamps (MBF/U) housed on them.
PS - I'm sending this post via the blogsite - and ........... I have icons and everyhting else - no red X's in site
"twiz for boats" Eh? That's what I said (or meant) "so allowed craft to pass upriver past the Green"
What do you call a lock that lets the tide through - useless
Sorry, that one assaulted me after "When is a door not a door?" - "When it's ajar."
Oh dear... sorry again - so old it's got a wheelchair.
I think Clydesmill was mothballed and out of service long before I found it. Certainly, on reflection, the site was dead from whenever I started to wander past the Westburn Works for a look at it, but I didn't realise that then, and just assumed it was reserve. I never saw it for some years, then was passing down the road to Cambuslang and near fell off the road when I looked over and all that was left was the chimney, literally standing on its own, and due for demolition in a few days, although I didn't know that at the time, and was too late to get any pics before it was obliterated.
The lamposts I'm referring to never saw a vapour lamp in their lives, that's one of the reasons I like them for their cuteness, they'd only be about 10 feet tall or so. These took nothing more elaborate than a big, honest, glass lightbulb, maybe even just an ordinary bayonet (or screw, to stop folk pinching them) cap type that you might have had at home years ago. The local neds just smashed the, the posts that is, not the bulbs, as they may have been concrete, but a fairly large hammer and time (or even just half bricks) soon ruined them.
At the very highest tides I would expect the GG wier to be overrun, in fact I would not be surprised if most high tides overran it slightly. The earlier one with the lock gate which would probably only be usable at high tide is quite logical and would have allowed access to Carmyle. Although it is not mentioned on the linked page is it possible that one of the sections of the present one are liftable or collapsible?
Maybe the only solution is for a "local" to visit the boatyard and simply ask?
The construction pics of the current weir rule out "liftable or collapsible" (it is adjustable though), besides, you need a lock to allow craft to move past such a barrier. A weir is nothing more than a dam that's allowed to overflow. If you simply remove or open the weir, then ALL the water from the high side will want to drain unchecked. Your boat will be swept away - unless it's maybe a 3,000 hp MTB
The story about the dolphin looks as if it is not quite the interesting news item it might have been, and has a more depressing side.
The dolphin is being described as less than healthy and somewhat disoriented.
Attempt to herd the mammal out to sea have been unsuccessful, and the story could be heading for a sad end if it can't be persuaded to leave the Clyde, with physically shifting the creature effectively ruled out as the stress could finish it off anyway.
I guess you were wrong about the lack of cooling towers at Clydesmill!
I guess this station provided power for the steelworks (1955 pic apparently)...
Clyde's Mill, opened 1916 by the Clyde Valley Electrical Power Co. Closed 1978 by South of Scotland Electricity Board. Largest size 332.5 MW. Demolished. Also a separate gas turbine was installed in 1965 and seems to have been treated as a separate station being closed after the main station and demolished c. 2002.
I'm afraid my knowledge and commnets/questions were about the gas turbine station - I didn't even know about its predecessor
It makes sense though. As you may have gathered, I have something more than a passing knowledge of things electrical, and I was always puzzled by the extent of the remains of the distribution network that can still be seen in current aerial images of the area to the east of the Clydesmill station site. There was just too much, and it was too awkwardly positioned to be logical. Now I can see that the gear belonged to the earlier station, and things are no longer the puzzle they once were.
Incidentally, Clyde's Mill was named because it was the site of a mill owned by Mr Clyde - now that's what I call a coinicidence, not the contrived connections 'smart' writers try to come up with nowadays.
I've just given the urls of the images, since I don't know the owner and don't want to upset them, but the pics are very valid in relation to what we have raised in here.
The lade clearly visible in the excellent aerial pic above provided water for whatever function a coal fired power station would need it for, the cooling towers I presume released the steam after the water was used ......... but I'm guessing on that. There is about 4 or 5 release sluices apparent in the pic too which I'd imagine could have been contolled to suit the intake needs of the power station. The massive size of the facility above differs hugely from the final pictures when demolished so the above must have been physically reduced over the years. I vaguely recall a big building - probably back in the mid to late 60's when I used to visit the village for a while - but mainly the smaller building. On an historical note the name 'Clydesmill' goes back centuries and refers to a grain mill a mile or so further upriver [exact location not entirely known yet], it is recorded in every old land transaction in the district and on the Pont map of 1596 so I don't know where this Mr. Clyde comes into it though it is entirely understandable that the name would have been taken from the earlier mill.
The Glasgow Green lock and weir is certainly a puzzle, could the lock gates and adjacent banking between it and the weir not have been a good deal higher than the weir to prevent high tides damaging both? i.e. the high tides could rise above the weir [depending on the height of that] and pass upstream but lock gates and supporting banking being higher prevented any tidal ingression. Can I post the image of the weir?
Post what you like, past hints are only aimed at trying to avoid upsetting someone by careless posting that makes their stuff look as if its being passed off as 'the posters'.
The outlets would have been for each of the plants that can be seen in the pic, so that each could operate independently. Looks like four smaller plants to the left, and two biggies to the right. I can only assume that the cooling capacity of the water was consumed in full by the smaller plants, leaving nothing for the larger installation on the right, hence the cooling towers.
I've taken the name and story about Clyde's Mill (provided as two words) on good faith of course, as it comes as part of the history of the power station. I'd like to give more detail, but don't have it, so the date and location, and lifetime of Mr Clyde is something I can't add.
Regarding the weir and lock, it may be worth remembering that we're only talking about tidal water levels, not canal locks designed to raise and lower craft over great heights. Any lock on the Clyde (and bear in mind also that we're talking normal tides, not floods), would only have provided a few feet of reliable clearance, so we're not going to get anything with an appreciable draft, or carrying any sort of load through it. I'm guessing it wasn't very large either, so would suggest we're talking about things like rowing boats passing through it, and not anything of any significance.
I can't see any point in having the lock or banking higher, since unlike a canal lock, this lock can only fill to whatever maximum height the river is at any time - a canal lock has the next highest lock, or the top of line source to give it the head of water it needs to operate. If the lock and immediate banking were higher, they still wouldn't stop the river at high tide, as it would simply burst its banks a few feet further downstream, and carry on regardless - unless I'm picking up the idea wrongly.
I think the potential puzzle of the lock and weir disappears if we think of nothing much bigger than rowing boats passing along there, which I think makes sense as the local of the time would surely have used the river then in the same way as we use the road now, and the roads then wouldn't have been as handy as they are now - and would have needed a horse and cart too. The rowing boat only needed a man or two, or a boy.
I think you may be overcomplicating the "lock". All that would be required was a gate or other removeable section in the weir which could be opened at high tide to allow boats through. It would only be at high tide that there would have been enough depth of water below the weir for use commercially. The removeable section would have been prevented from opening at other times by the pressure of the water above the weir.
This is basically the system used in commercial docks like the James Watt which was only accessible to shipping when the caisson was removed at high tide.
You've echoed the point I was making, but it would still have to have two gates to earn itself the name of a lock.
A single gate would only be of use when the water on both sides was at the same height, otherwise the pressure would either hold it in place (unless I'm wrong abut the purpose of the weir, it will always be higher upriver, being topped up continuously by the river and its tributaries), or render the weir useless if it was left open, allowing the tidal flow to pass unchecked.
Dry docks are a different case, being open to allow vessels to enter, at which point the gates can be easily closed as there is not pressure difference, then pumped dry, locking the gates, which can then only be opened later when the dock has been flooded and the water levels once again equalised and removed the pressure difference, allowing the gates to open freely once again.
I came across a mention of James Watt: "In 1769 James Watt, examining the declivity of the river's bed from the Broomielaw Quay to Dumbreck Ford, found the low-water depth to be 14 inches at Hirst Ford, and at Dumbreck Ford 2 feet."
No precise location, but I found this too: "There are references in Inverness Library to a McGruer building a wooden warship for a French nobleman in the year 1296 and by the late 1800s Ewing and Gruer McGruer had established a boat business at Rutherglen near Glasgow."
Doesn't say how they sail there, but Glasgow Council have got in on the act: Adopted City Plan : 01 August 2003 : Adopted City Plan : 01 August 2003 : City Plan - Part 1 - Development Strategy - River http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Business/City+Plan/Part+1+-+Development+Strategy/River/Context/ "9.3 Although the use of the River has declined, a limited number of important users and functions remain. Govan is now the upper limit for commercial cargo operations on the River, with King George V Dock the principal focus for activity. The shipyards downstream of Govan access the water for launches and mooring while the PS Waverley sails upstream as far as its mooring at Anderston Quay. Yorkhill basin, just upstream of the Kelvin, is currently used for visiting naval and other vessels and the tall ship, the SV Glenlee, is berthed at Yorkhill Quay. The Euroyachts (Largs) boatyard at Windmillcroft Quay, operates unrestricted by the available water depth and occasional small craft sail upstream to the boatyard at Rutherglen."
I'm beginning to thing the Rutherglen boatyard began life as a boat builders yard, and therefore did not need the access we are puzzling over today, as (larger) products could be built in sections, and then floated downriver for assembly at a larger shipyard. Changes to the river, ie things like weirs, dredging etc have changed things since then, making it look odd now, but perfectly logical when it was first established - Rutherglen being a fairly major place of industry, it would have had the necessary people an resources nearby.
Before you think I've taken leave of my senses, and developed a vivid imagination, I do have the evidence to back this up now, thanks to T B Seath & Co, Rutherglen
Thomas B Seath of Rutherglen dates back to at least 1856, and I see at least 240 craft credited to the yard.
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It all depends on how high this lock at the Green was, if it was only a rudimentary affair of a few feet it is feasible that the high spring tides might well have been able to rise above it - and the weir and flood up river far as Carmyle. 
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